Examination of Witness (Questions 188-199)
3 DECEMBER 2003
MS LINDA
HINGLEY
Q188 Chairman: Good afternoon.
Ms Hingley: Do you want me to
start with a brief statement about what I do or do you want to
start straight as you did with the other gentleman?
Q189 Chairman: I think we would probably
like to ask questions and if at the end there is something critical
that you think we have not covered, then feel free to mention
it.
Ms Hingley: As you know, it is
a huge issue and I am very passionate about it.
Q190 Chairman: Well, I would try and
contain that. Welcome to the Committee. You know the purpose of
our session.
Ms Hingley: Yes, and thank you
for allowing me to come.
Q191 Chairman: You have give us written
evidence for which we thank you. Can you tell the Committee what
the evidence is this year for what is happening on Devon's beaches
and I do not know if you know for Cornwall as well, and why is
it that it is dolphins that you find and not the porpoises?
Ms Hingley: Well, I just cleared
a dead dolphin yesterday off a Devon beach. The autumn ones have
already started. As you know, this year is the worst year on record
for Devon and Cornwall beaches. The main dolphins that I clear
are common dolphins and they are seasonal. It is only in the winter
months that I get common dolphins washed ashore and we know virtually
how they are being killed now and I do not think there is any
argument about that. It is the pelagic fishery in particular,
the bass pair trawlers that are definitely killing the common
dolphin and this is proven from the post mortem reports and from
the observer scheme that Defra ran three years ago. I also get
porpoises. Interestingly, the porpoises that I get are not seasonal,
but they are all year round and they do correspond with neaps,
neap tides. As you know, you get high tides and low tides and
neap tides are when the tide is at its lowest and that is interesting
because that is actually when a lot of the set netters are working.
They actually have to work neaps and not the tops of the tides,
as they call it, so it is very interesting that when I do get
porpoises wash in, it does correspond to the fishery that we know
would have a problem with them.
Q192 Chairman: And are they autopsied?
Ms Hingley: They are autopsied,
yes. Interestingly, and I am going to be absolutely straight on
this, some of the porpoises that we send off for post mortem have
died of natural causes, but most of the porpoises that we send
off are actually by-catch and are proven to be by-catch, but we
do get porpoises occasionally that have high worm burdens, worm
infestations, and we get them with secondary pneumonia. Porpoises,
as you know, are the smallest cetacean in our waters and they
do have a real problem with pollution. Their nature of feeding
is that they are bottom feeders, so they are very different from
dolphins. They are bottom feeders, so they dig in the sand and
the mud and they do pick up a lot more pollutants and things that
are around in the river estuaries which is where they feed, so
to be absolutely fair, you do get sick porpoises occasionally,
but you would never get sick common dolphins. All the common dolphins
that I send off are so healthy I cannot tell you.
Q193 Mr Lazarowicz: Why is the pelagic
sea bass fishery particularly prone to common dolphin by-catch,
do you think?
Ms Hingley: I do not know if you
have had a look at the evidence that I put in, but I did actually
say the reasons why the bass pair trawl fishery is particularly
devastating to common dolphins. First and foremost, it is a massive
trawl, it is a huge trawl, it really is. Secondly, it is pulled
very fast through the water at about eight knots, which is not
very fast for a dolphin, but very fast if you have got a huge
trawl and a dolphin swimming into it going the other way. Thirdly,
and this is very important, they are towed for very long periods
of time and we are talking about from dawn till dusk, sometimes
eight to ten hours, and there are very few fisheries that have
their gear in the water for that length of time. For example,
the pelagic fishery, which we know can catch and kill dolphins,
I know pelagic fishermen and if they are targeting sprats or mackerel,
their gear sometimes is only in the water—this is a pelagic
single trawl—for 10 or 20 minutes. These boats are highly
sophisticated. They do not want to waste time finding fish. What
they do is they go out there, they find the shoal of fish on their
fish-finding apparatus and they zap it, so, in other words, your
gear is only in the water for a short period of time. If dolphins
are around in that short period of time, yes, they could be caught
and killed, but the chances are that the dolphins have more of
a chance of escape. If you have got a massive phing going through
the water at quite a high speed, eight to ten knots, for ten hours
and you have got the opening, which I put in my evidence, which
can be from the surface to the bottom of the sea, nothing is going
to stand a chance, nothing
Q194 Mr Lazarowicz: I think you advocate
suspending the fishery—
Ms Hingley: Yes, I would love
to see it banned, yes.
Q195 Mr Lazarowicz: —until a method
for preventing the by-catch can be found?
Ms Hingley: Yes.
Q196 Mr Lazarowicz: Do you think there
are methods which can be worked out to prevent this by-catch?
Ms Hingley: No, I do not. I do
not know what method you could use. With the Scottish bass pair
trawls, they are so huge and they are devastating. They have done
so much damage to the common dolphins in the English Channel over
the last 10 or 15 years. Defra's own figures are so damning on
this, I do not see how we can see these dead bodies washing in,
and I just do not think there is anywhere to go on this. I think
we have to ban it. What I would have loved to have done is to
have banned it for one season, just suppose we banned it for one
season, and see what is washing up in Devon and Cornwall. Let's
just see. Ban it for one season and let's just see what we have
washing up on our beaches.
Q197 Mr Lazarowicz: But if your supposition
was correct, the logical conclusion to your position would be
that the fishery would be closed, not suspended, and closed indefinitely.
Is that not correct?
Ms Hingley: Yes, and I would like
to say that I speak as a person from the fishing industry. As
you know, I have been involved with the fishing industry for 25
years when I married a fisherman 25 years ago. For 12 years I
have been a part-owner of a beam trawler. My whole income is derived
from the fishing industry. I have nothing to gain from banning
the bass pair trawl fishery because our boat does not really catch
very much bass at all and we do not target bass. A beam trawler
is for flat fish, it is on the bottom and we target bottom fish.
I can honestly tell you that the only reason I got involved with
what I am involved with now is because I was devastated to find
out how much damage is going on in an industry that I actually
love, respect and admire. I am afraid this is an industry which
is a wonderful industry which has been hideously mis-managed,
it is motivated by total greed and it needs a complete clean-up.
I am afraid there are ways to catch bass which do not kill dolphins
and those are what we should be looking at. This is an industry
which was banned in America six years ago on conservation grounds
totally and I was not aware that the Americans have got a tremendously
good eco-friendly record. I think the only way to approach the
bass pair trawl fishery in the English Channel is to ban it until
we know that we have got absolute categoric proof of designs or
mitigation methods that are going to protect dolphins. There is
no other way out of this. Let me just say, there is one thing
that you could do, and I have spoken to a lot of fishermen about
this. I have said, "What would you do?", and they have
said, "Well, there is evidence to show", and the Defra
observers proved this, "that smaller pair trawlers do not
catch dolphins". The gear is much smaller, the trawls are
much smaller, so if you are going to tinker with the fishing industry,
and you cannot tinker with the fishing industry, as you know,
because how do you tell a bloke who has a 1,200 horsepower boat
to suddenly go out, flog it and buy one that is 300 horsepower,
it is like dis-inventing the wheel, but small is beautiful, I
am afraid, and I am afraid that in this particular issue there
is evidence that shows that smaller horsepower does not catch
dolphins purely because the gear is so much smaller. In other
words, if you had two boats that were 300 horsepower towing a
trawl, it would be much, much smaller and it would have to be.
Do you get my drift? It is 600 horsepower in total. The boats
that are working off Start Point, which is the area off Devon
where all of these dolphins are washing in that I deal with at
the moment, they are massive. They are 1,200 or 1,500 horsepower,
2,000 horsepower, so those two combined, that is the power. It
is power, pure power that is pulling that amount of gear through
the water.
Q198 Mr Lazarowicz: If the measures that
you want to see put in place were taken, would there not be calls
from the industry for government compensation?
Ms Hingley: Yes, there would have
to be, I am afraid, yes. I would not like to talk about that because
I think you need to ask your fisheries representatives about that.
Q199 Mr Lazarowicz: But if this activity
is so morally reprehensible, why should the Government, why should
the public purse compensate people for this?
Ms Hingley: Well, that is a good
point. There is one point I would like to make. As you know, the
common dolphins are killed in the main, we think, by the bass
pair trawlers. As you know, the bass pair trawlers only work in
the English Channel in the winter months and the season is actually
quite small. They have started working now, but the actual bass
season is only from the 1 January to 30 March, so we are only
talking about three months. Now, these trawlers are actually working
elsewhere for the rest of the year and they are doing other fisheries,
so in actual fact they are not totally reliant on this fishery
for all of their income as they do other things as well. I suggest
they go back and they do their other things. That is what I suggest
they do.
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