Examination of Witnesses (Questions 210-219)
3 DECEMBER 2003
MR BEN
BRADSHAW, MR
MARTIN CAPSTICK
AND MR
COLIN PENNY
Q210 Chairman: Minister, welcome. As
you know, we are conducting an inquiry into cetacean by-catch
and as a Devon Member of Parliament I am sure you know from your
post bag and your involvement in the community exactly how important
this is in the West Country. We have just had an incredibly passionate
presentation from Ms Hingley and prior to that the Sea Fisheries
Committee. We welcome you today. Would you be kind enough to introduce
your officials to us?
Mr Bradshaw: Martin Capstick,
on my right, is from our Wildlife Division, and Colin Penny is
from our Fisheries Division.
Q211 Chairman: Welcome to you all. Can
you give us an estimate of the current status of the by-catch
response strategy which was published in March this year? How
is it going?
Mr Bradshaw: We think it is going
very well. We are hoping to move forward with practical, concrete
proposals in the New Year. The response has been very helpful
to us. It has been informed, as you may already have been told,
by some very interesting research that we have carried out with
the Sea Mammal Research Unit from St Andrew's University in the
last bass fisheries season and which is resuming this very week
in the bass fishery off the south-west.
Q212 Chairman: So there will be changes
to the strategy as a result of the review or the consultation?
Mr Bradshaw: There will certainly
be changes to our policy. We are already changing the policy as
a result of what we are discovering all the time. I think it is
probably worth putting on the record that the United Kingdom has
led in the field of both raising concern about and implementing
policies aimed at tackling the problem of cetacean by-catch not
just in the European Union but in the world. The Agreement on
the Conservation of Small Cetaceans of the Baltic of North Seas
was driven by the UK. The new proposals that are coming out from
the European Commission to help tackle this problem are again
as a result of pressure from the United Kingdom. We are in the
forefront of both the research and action to tackle the problem
of cetacean by-catch and the more we find out about it the more
we are prepared to do. We have already, since our strategy was
published earlier this year, decided to resume the trials that
I have just talked about off the south-west coast because they
proved to be so successful this season and we wanted to see if
we could make them even more successful in the next so that we
have evidence to take to other countries to encourage them to
tackle the problem in the same way as we are doing.
Q213 Chairman: So there is a timetable
on implementing the strategy, is there? I know you have said you
are doing work already off the south-west coast.
Mr Bradshaw: We will implement
whatever measures unilaterally that we think can be helpful, we
are not going to wait for other countries to do this, but at the
same time we recognise that without concerted international action
and in our case at a European Union level whatever we do is only
going to be a very small contribution. As I was waiting to come
in one of your members raised the problem of the offshore bass
fishery. To put this into context, we have two or four pair trawlers,
at most, involved in our bass fishery off the south-west compared
with 30 French. As you may also be aware, while the terrible and
distressing problem, quite rightly, highlighted by Linda a few
minutes ago of cetacean catch is very high profile in this country
and is taken very seriously, it hardly registers on the radar
across the Channel. When my French colleague was asked about it
recently he said he was not even aware it existed. I know that
some of the non-governmental organisations like Greenpeace are
trying to raise the profile of this problem across the Channel,
but a unilateral action would be helpful insofar as it goes, but
until we can persuade our fellow European countries—and
the Commission is making progress on this, coming up with its
own proposals—the problem is not going to be solved by us
alone.
Q214 Chairman: I do not think there will
be any disagreement about that, but when do you think the Commission
is going to enact its strategy?
Mr Bradshaw: I do not think I
would be wise to put a date on that. The Commission will try to
move the matter forward as quickly as it can get agreement among
Member States. Fisheries is an EU competence, decisions are determined
on Qualified Majority Voting and I think, to be realistic about
it, a great deal more work still needs to be done on some of the
other Member States for whom this is not such a serious issue,
if they recognise it as an issue at all. I would urge a lot of
those organisations and individuals who do a great deal of very
good campaigning in this country and who have helped raise this
as an issue either themselves or in groups to campaign on it in
other countries because until we put it on the agenda of other
countries I do not think we are going to move forward as quickly
as all of us would wish.
Q215 Chairman: What is the process to
get it onto the agenda?
Mr Bradshaw: It is already on
the general agenda. The Commission, as a result of UK pressure,
has come up with proposals. At this time of year, as I am sure
your Committee understand, the minds of, certainly, fisheries
ministers are on other things in the run up to the all-important
December councils when the quotas and TACs are set. We shall be
pushing it in the New Year in discussions both with the Commissioner
and with colleagues. We are writing to the Commission giving them
evidence already of the success of the trials that we undertook
in our own bass fishery this year. We will, of course, send them
any evidence that we gather from those recommenced trials this
week and throughout the bass fishery season we will keep up as
much pressure as we can, but I cannot second-guess what timetable
the Commission is going to use to implement the proposals that
it has already put in the public domain.
Q216 Chairman: But if you could put a
guess on it.
Mr Bradshaw: It is very difficult,
Candy. I would hope that they would move forward with concrete
proposals next year, but that will not stop us doing whatever
we think is necessary in order to mitigate this very serious problem.
Q217 Mr Mitchell: I think you are going
to have to press hard and passionately for it because we have
just heard from Linda Hingley a very powerful demand for the bass
pair trawler with his massive clean up of nets in which the dolphins
are crushed and killed to be stopped entirely. We know the difficulties
of giving some to get some in trading and the Common Fisheries
Policy has been the best example we have had most recently with
the industrial fishing which the British Government wants banned
but because it needs support from the Danes on other issues it
does not get banned. It is going to be incredibly difficult to
persuade the French to abdicate anything which they feel is in
their interest.
Mr Bradshaw: I think it would
be difficult to persuade the French to close the bass fishery
altogether, but I do not think it would be difficult to persuade
them that this is a serious issue.
Q218 Mr Mitchell: It would not be closing
the bass fishery altogether, it would be stopping bass pair trawling
and trawling for bass in other fashions, with smaller nets maybe.
Mr Bradshaw: We certainly would
not rule that out as an option. All I would say to you is if we
can avoid closing the pair trawl fishery through using the mechanisms
that have shown themselves to be amazingly and extraordinarily
successful this year in reducing the amount of cetacean by-catch
then that would be a more sensible course of action. The other
thing that is worth pointing out is that cetacean by-catch is
not a problem that is solely associated with the bass trawl fishery.
This is a problem that happens all over the world in virtually
all fisheries and particularly in mixed fisheries. It is very
difficult to avoid catching some fish and small sea mammals that
you do not want to catch in the fishery. It was Britain that led
the way in reaching the international agreement to aim to reduce
a by-catch of small cetaceans to 1.7% and we ourselves are aiming
at 1 per cent. I repeat what I said, I think it is very important
that people recognise the success of the research that we did
this year on the separator grid which is being repeated in this
current fishing season. I would think it would be very difficult
for any other Member State, when shown the evidence that we are
already gathering as to how you can avoid catching dolphins in
this fishery and the relatively low expense of installing these
grids, not to follow our example.
Q219 Mr Mitchell: I would be worried
because that sounds a little complacent as a reply and I would
hope the British Government would take it up more passionately
than it is doing. Separator grids were strongly criticised by
Linda Hingley as leading to considerable damage, still killing
cetaceans and not providing the escape channels that they are
supposed to provide. You mentioned our lead in fixing a target
of 1.7% of the best estimates of the total population, but we
have not achieved that.
Mr Bradshaw: This is one area
where I disagree very strongly with what Linda thinks. I did not
hear what she told you today but I have heard what she has said
in the past about this. I do not know whether members know what
these nets look like. I would invite you to view the film that
was made of how this works. In the period of seven weeks when
these grids are being trialled, they are inserted into the net
near the bottom end where the fish are caught so that any larger
thing than a bass that comes in hits the grid, which is at an
angle, and is then released through a flap in the net. In the
period that we would normally have expected, at the height of
the bass fishery, to catch in by-catch probably more than 50 dolphins,
only two were caught in that period. So it was quite a dramatic
reduction.
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