Examination of Witness (Questions 20-39)
15 JULY 2003
DR DAVID
KELLY
Q20 Mr Olner: Dr Kelly, could you
speak up, please. The problem is these microphones do not amplify
the noise.
Dr Kelly: I apologise. I have
a soft voice, I know.
Q21 Chairman: One final question
under this heading. Presumably you did discuss this with other
colleagues who were involved themselves in the preparation of
the dossier, so you knew what was going on?
Dr Kelly: I was familiar with
some of it. Actually I was either on leave or working abroad in
the August and early September of that time frame. That component,
no, I really was not involved.
Q22 Mr Chidgey: I just want to move
on to the section of our inquiry dealing with contacts with Andrew
Gilligan and journalists, but before we talk about Andrew Gilligan
can I just confirm that you have also met Susan Watts?
Dr Kelly: I have met her on one
occasion.
Q23 Mr Chidgey: Thank you. I would
just like to read out to you a statement in the notes that were
made: "In the run-up to the dossier the Government was obsessed
with finding intelligence to justify an immediate Iraqi threat.
While we were agreed on the potential Iraqi threat in the future
there was less agreement about the threat the Iraqis posed at
the moment. That was the real concern, not so much what they had
now but what they would have in the future, but that unfortunately
was not expressed strongly in the dossier because that takes the
case away for war to a certain extent". Finally, "The
45 minutes was a statement that was made and it got out of all
proportion. They were desperate for information. They were pushing
hard for information that could be released. That was one that
popped up and it was seized on and it is unfortunate that it was.
That is why there is an argument between the intelligence services
and Number 10, because they had picked up on it and once they
had picked up on it you cannot pull back from it, so many people
will say `Well, we are not sure about that' because the word smithing
is actually quite important." I understand from Miss Watts
that is the record of a meeting that you had with her. Do you
still agree with those comments?
Dr Kelly: First of all, I do not
recognise those comments, I have to say. The meeting I had with
her was on November 5 last year and I remember that precisely
because I gave a presentation in the Foreign Office on Iraq's
weapons of mass destruction. I cannot believe that on that occasion
I made that statement.
Q24 Mr Chidgey: That is very helpful.
Can I just be clear on this: I understand that these notes refer
to meetings that took place shortly before the Newsnight
broadcasts that would have been on 2 and 4 June.
Dr Kelly: I have only met Susan
Watts on one occasion, which was not on a one-to-one basis, it
was at the end of a public presentation.
Mr Chidgey: Thank you very much, that
is very helpful.
Q25 Andrew Mackinlay: What other
journalists have you met since 2002 onwards?
Dr Kelly: You mean physically
met face-to-face?
Q26 Andrew Mackinlay: Yes, precisely
I mean not at an authorised briefing but any time outside an authorised
briefing where there is a group of people, the one-to-one?
Dr Kelly: I am afraid at the moment
I cannot list that but if you would like to make a formal request
to the Ministry of Defence they will respond to you. Basically
the list is very few people.
Q27 Andrew Mackinlay: So you could
phone the clerk later tonight with the list precisely, could you,
to the best of your recollection?
Dr Kelly: I think it is something
that should be formally requested of the Ministry of Defence.
Q28 Andrew Mackinlay: Well, I disagree
because it is a matter of who you met, it cannot be state secrets,
can it?
Dr Kelly: It is not state secrets
at all but I have an accurate record of who I have met and I will
have to consult my diaries.
Q29 Andrew Mackinlay: Could you do
that over the next 24 hours?
Dr Kelly: No, because at the moment
I am pursued by the press and I do not have access to my home.
Q30 Andrew Mackinlay: When could
you do it by?
Dr Kelly: I could do it by the
end of the week but the request should be made to the Ministry
of Defence.
Q31 Andrew Mackinlay: I will worry
about who the request has got to be made to, but in principle
you will provide that for this Committee before Thursday?
Dr Kelly: I will provide it to
the Ministry of Defence.
Q32 Andrew Mackinlay: Okay. You met
Gilligan, I think, for the first time about two and a half years
ago?
Dr Kelly: Not to my recollection.
The first time that I remember meeting him was at a meeting in
September of last year.
Q33 Andrew Mackinlay: September 2002?
Dr Kelly: Correct.
Q34 Andrew Mackinlay: How many times
have you seen him since?
Dr Kelly: Twice.
Q35 Andrew Mackinlay: On what occasions?
Dr Kelly: A day in February, a
date I cannot remember, I am having difficulty locating it, and
the now infamous May 22 meeting.
Q36 Andrew Mackinlay: Of this year?
Dr Kelly: Of this year.
Q37 Andrew Mackinlay: In the period
you have known him, how frequently have you had telephone contact
with him and/or e-mail or other communications?
Dr Kelly: I do not believe I have
ever had e-mail contact with him and very few telephone conversations.
Q38 Andrew Mackinlay: Which documents
have you shown him?
Dr Kelly: I have shown him none
whatsoever.
Q39 Andrew Mackinlay: When you met
Mr Gilligan on any of these occasions, was he fully aware of the
extent of access you had to intelligence information?
Dr Kelly: I would not think so,
he would not have got it from me.
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