Examination of Witness (Questions 60-79)
15 JULY 2003
DR DAVID
KELLY
Q60 Mr Olner: How did the word "Campbell"
come to be mixed up with all of that? What led you to say that?
Dr Kelly: I did not say that.
What I had a conversation about was the probability of a requirement
to use such weapons. The question was then asked why, if weapons
could be deployed at 45 minutes notice, were they not used, and
I offered my reasons why they may not have been used.
Q61 Chairman: Again, I am finding
it very difficult to hear. The fans have been turned off, could
you do your very best to raise your voice, please.
Dr Kelly: It came in in that sense
and then the significance of it was discussed and then why it
might have been in the dossier. That is how it came up.
Q62 Mr Pope: Mr Gilligan said in
his article in the Mail on Sunday of 1 June "I asked
him", the source, "how this transformation happened.
The answer was a single word. `Campbell'." In your conversation
with Mr Gilligan did you use the word "Campbell" in
that context?
Dr Kelly: I cannot recall using
the name Campbell in that context, it does not sound like a thing
that I would say.
Q63 Mr Pope: Do you believe that
the document was transformed, the September dossier, by Alastair
Campbell?
Dr Kelly: I do not believe that
at all.
Q64 Mr Pope: When you met Mr Gilligan
on 22 May he says in his article that he met a source in a central
London hotel on that day. Did you meet him in a central London
hotel?
Dr Kelly: I did.
Q65 Chairman: Which hotel was that?
Dr Kelly: The Charing Cross Hotel.
Q66 Mr Pope: Did you begin your conversation
with Mr Gilligan by discussing the poor state of Britain's railways?
Dr Kelly: No.
Q67 Mr Pope: The reason I ask is
because he said "We started off by moaning about the railways"
and what I am trying to get to the bottom of is whether or not
you were the source, the main source, of Mr Gilligan or whether
you were one of the other three minor sources which Mr Gilligan
has told us he had. I am really trying to get to the bottom of
that. Mr Gilligan will not answer this Committee's questions on
those specific points. I just want to know, in your own opinion
do you believe that you were the main source of Mr Gilligan's
article on 1 June?
Dr Kelly: My belief is that I
am not the main source.
Q68 Mr Pope: Do you know who the
main source is?
Dr Kelly: No.
Andrew Mackinlay: Any idea?
Q69 Mr Pope: I want to be absolutely
clear on this. You do not believe that you are the main source,
that it is someone else?
Dr Kelly: From the conversation
I had with him, I do not see how he could make the authoritative
statement he was making from the comments that I made.
Q70 Mr Maples: Dr Kelly, just following
on from what Mr Pope was saying. Mr Gilligan told us that he had
four sources in this area and we are trying to find out whether
you are the one or whether you are one of the other three. Did
you know about this 45 minute claim before the dossier was published?
Dr Kelly: No, it became apparent
to me on publication.
Q71 Mr Maples: So you did not know
about it before you, like all of us, read the dossier?
Dr Kelly: No. I might have appreciated
it 48 hours beforehand but not before that.
Q72 Mr Maples: You would not have
known about it significantly in advance. You were never part of
any discussions about whether this should or should not be included
in the dossier?
Dr Kelly: No.
Q73 Mr Maples: Similarly with the
question of the uranium from Niger—I do not want to put
words in your mouth but it is the same question really—when
did you know about that?
Dr Kelly: The only knowledge I
have about Niger and uranium is from the newspapers. At that stage
at the end of May it was the time when Mr Baradei, head of the
International Atomic Energy Authority, had made the statement
that the documents were forged.
Q74 Mr Maples: Of course there is
a claim in the dossier about the uranium from Niger.
Dr Kelly: Yes.
Q75 Mr Maples: Did you first become
aware of that at or around the time the dossier was published?
In other words, were you a part of any conversations?
Dr Kelly: I am not an expert on
nuclear matters. When I read it I was aware that the statement
was there but I had no opinion on it.
Q76 Mr Maples: You said that your
work which went into the dossier was largely history and it was
done in April and May of last year.
Dr Kelly: May and June, I think.
Q77 Mr Maples: Sorry, May and June,
and that you were away, either on leave or abroad, in August and
early September. In evidence to us it has become clear that the
final form of this dossier was published and emerged in a first
draft, whatever in that context it means, a first draft of this
document on 9/10 September last year and was published, I think,
on 23/24 September. During that period did you go to any meetings
or have any discussions with anybody about what was in there?
Dr Kelly: No. I would have been
in the country at that time but I did not participate in any meetings.
Q78 Mr Maples: So after you had written
your bit in May and June—
Dr Kelly: I forgot about it.
Q79 Mr Maples: —you had nothing
more to do with it. I just wanted to ask you a couple more questions
since you are here. When you were a weapons inspector with UNSCOM
in Iraq—I only got this from newspaper reports and you can
tell me if it is not true—you were shown by an Iraqi general
or minister a site in evidence that Iraq had tested a radiological
weapon, or sought to test a radiological weapon, a dirty bomb
I suppose in the jargon.
Dr Kelly: On one inspection that
I led the Iraqi authorities asked that there should be a special
briefing to the team and at that mission, which was an interview
mission, the acknowledgement was made by General Fahi Shaheen,
together with Brigadier Haifa, that they had undertaken experiments
with radiological weapons in 1987. I have been to the site since
but not to investigate the radiation.
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