Select Committee on Foreign Affairs Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witness (Questions 340-357)

17 JULY 2003

MR ANDREW GILLIGAN

  Q340  Sir John Stanley: Mr Illsley has made the point that I wanted to put on the record. Mr Gilligan, it is all very well relying on the denial by Government to this Committee of Mr Scarlett, and I agree it is regrettable that we have not had access to Mr Scarlett and, indeed, to the earlier drafts, but I must put it you that if you, yourself, wish to substantiate your evidence to the Committee, the prime difficulty the Committee has had is you not revealing your source and that is why we are here today. I just want to put it to you, so it is on the record, are you willing to reveal your source? Remember also that this Committee has the option of taking evidence in private from your source if he chose to do so.

  Mr Gilligan: I really wish I could reveal my source. I really do appreciate the Committee has a legitimate interest in knowing who he is, and I really do wish I could satisfy it.

  Q341  Mr Olner: It is a he, is it?

  Mr Gilligan: Yes, I have always said it is a man. However, I ask you also to accept that the BBC and I have a legitimate interest and duty in not disclosing any more than we already have done about the source. If my confidential source could not have been certain that his identity would remain confidential he would not have come forward and important information, which this Committee has acknowledged as being of value to it in its inquiry, would probably never have been known. I am thinking particularly of the knowledge that the 45 minute point was based on a single uncorroborated informant that formed quite an important part of the Committee's conclusions at paragraphs 70 and 71. It emerged as a result of the journalism by the BBC. Several other important facts in this story emerged only as a result of anonymous source journalism at first and were only then confirmed by Government witnesses.

  Q342  Chairman: Are you reading something?

  Mr Gilligan: I am thinking about the uranium from Africa claim, the fact that the CIA had warned the Government not to include that in the dossier. That only emerged through anonymous source journalism. I would respectfully submit to the Committee that anonymous source journalism does have its value and although I have tried to persuade my source to go on the record, for obvious career reasons he is unable to, and I must respect that confidence.

  Q343  Sir John Stanley: The fact you have just said that is clearly absolute confirmation from you that your source is not Dr Kelly.

  Mr Gilligan: I simply cannot add anything at all to the evidence I gave about my source.

  Q344  Andrew Mackinlay: It could be a—

  Mr Gilligan: I have just described to you at length the reasons why I cannot characterise any meeting I have had with any source.

  Q345  Mr Pope: But you have made an unsubstantiated claim against Alastair Campbell, you are quite prepared to see his career disappear on an unsubstantiated piece of oral evidence which has no backing whatsoever. We have not had a shred of evidence before this Committee that supports your claim.

  Mr Gilligan: Let me remind the Committee—

  Q346  Chairman: Finally—

  Mr Gilligan: May I just very quickly answer that point from Mr Pope. The source made a number of allegations, most of which have now been substantiated by other evidence available to the Committee. The allegation that the 45 minute point was—

  Q347  Mr Pope: We know that, but this one has not.

  Mr Gilligan: Hold on, his track record has been pretty good actually.

  Q348  Mr Pope: That is not the point.

  Mr Gilligan: It is. That is another reason why he should be given some credit. He was right about the 45 minute point being uncorroborated; he was right about it coming in late; he was right that the 45 minute point had been hardened up from the original JIC assessment; and he has been right about a number of other things.

  Q349  Chairman: Sorry, right about what?

  Mr Gilligan: That passage I just quoted to you from page 71 of your evidence volume corroborates his allegation that the 45 minute point had been hardened up. It simply says: "The original JIC assessment said that weapons could be delivered to units within 45 minutes." The Prime Minister's foreword said they could be ready within 45 minutes. There is a difference, a hardening up.

  Andrew Mackinlay: Well, just in case the record is read, and I—

  Chairman: We have agreed that this record will be.

  Andrew Mackinlay: Let me finish, Chairman, for Christ's sake. In case this record is read, or when it is read, I concur with the mood of all my colleagues here, the dismay about some of the things we have heard this afternoon, but I want it placed on record that we are seriously deficient as a Committee by not having access to the Chairman of the JIC and the documents we have sought. I have to say that prima facie, on the face of it, I think that Parliament and this Committee should be addressing itself to what has emerged from this Committee which is prima facie serious failings in the competence of the Security Intelligence Service. That is one of the things that we are in danger of losing sight of. I want that placed on the record.

  Chairman: It will be on the record.

  Andrew Mackinlay: The fact we have not got access to it will be a continuing deficiency and flaw in our parliamentary process.

  Q350  Mr Illsley: Just to confirm, you are telling this Committee that the BBC never made the allegation against Alastair Campbell, is that right, you are simply saying that the world and his grandmother drew the inference from your source?

  Mr Gilligan: No, I am not, that has been misinterpreted. I welcome the opportunity, once again, to set this straight. We are absolutely clear what the source said. He said that the dossier was transformed at Alastair Campbell's behest and the transformation included the inclusion of the 45 minute claim. I want to make that absolutely clear.

  Q351  Mr Illsley: Are you saying that the BBC never made the allegation that Campbell "sexed-up" the dossier and inserted 45 minutes in it?

  Mr Gilligan: No, I am saying exactly what I have just said to you, exactly what I have just said to you, Mr Illsley. The transformation was done at the behest of Alastair Campbell. I have said this to the Committee. The transformation included the insertion of the 45 minute claim.

  Q352  Mr Illsley: I thought you said to me a little earlier that you never said that Alastair Campbell inserted the 45 minute claim.

  Mr Gilligan: No, that was—

  Q353  Mr Illsley: It was an inference that anybody could reasonably draw.

  Mr Gilligan: That was an over-interpretation of what I said.

  Q354  Mr Olner: By whom?

  Mr Gilligan: I was simply trying to make a pedantic point, of which far too much has been made in this session. I want to put on record, once again, the source's allegation was that the dossier was transformed at the behest of Alastair Campbell. This transformation included the insertion of the 45 minute claim. I want to be absolutely clear, we are not resiling from that in any way.

  Q355  Mr Illsley: Are you saying that the BBC never made the allegation?

  Mr Gilligan: No, I am not, I am saying exactly the opposite, as I have done for about the fifth time now.

  Q356  Chairman: I think we have probably gone round the track a number of times. Are you saying you had only one source for the 45 minutes and Campbell?

  Mr Gilligan: That is right, yes.

  Q357  Chairman: You say you heard the evidence this Committee received from Dr Kelly and he says that he met with you and the 45 minutes and Campbell arose in that meeting.

  Mr Gilligan: As I said to you in my letter, Chairman, when I spoke of four sources I was speaking of people within the intelligence community who had expressed disquiet about the Government's use of intelligence on Iraq. I do, of course, have many other sources, including Ministry of Defence officials, and I spoke to a couple of them in an attempt to either corroborate or dismiss my primary source's story, getting no result either way. I simply have nothing further to add to that statement which I made to you in a letter, or to my evidence, or to that of Dr Kelly.

  Chairman: Unless there are any further questions I will call this meeting to a close and the Committee will deliberate and decide on the next steps. Thank you very much.





 
previous page contents next page

House of Commons home page Parliament home page House of Lords home page search page enquiries index

© Parliamentary copyright 2004
Prepared 16 March 2004