Examination of Witness (Questions 340-357)
17 JULY 2003
MR ANDREW
GILLIGAN
Q340 Sir John Stanley: Mr Illsley
has made the point that I wanted to put on the record. Mr Gilligan,
it is all very well relying on the denial by Government to this
Committee of Mr Scarlett, and I agree it is regrettable that we
have not had access to Mr Scarlett and, indeed, to the earlier
drafts, but I must put it you that if you, yourself, wish to substantiate
your evidence to the Committee, the prime difficulty the Committee
has had is you not revealing your source and that is why we are
here today. I just want to put it to you, so it is on the record,
are you willing to reveal your source? Remember also that this
Committee has the option of taking evidence in private from your
source if he chose to do so.
Mr Gilligan: I really wish I could
reveal my source. I really do appreciate the Committee has a legitimate
interest in knowing who he is, and I really do wish I could satisfy
it.
Q341 Mr Olner: It is a he, is it?
Mr Gilligan: Yes, I have always
said it is a man. However, I ask you also to accept that the BBC
and I have a legitimate interest and duty in not disclosing any
more than we already have done about the source. If my confidential
source could not have been certain that his identity would remain
confidential he would not have come forward and important information,
which this Committee has acknowledged as being of value to it
in its inquiry, would probably never have been known. I am thinking
particularly of the knowledge that the 45 minute point was based
on a single uncorroborated informant that formed quite an important
part of the Committee's conclusions at paragraphs 70 and 71. It
emerged as a result of the journalism by the BBC. Several other
important facts in this story emerged only as a result of anonymous
source journalism at first and were only then confirmed by Government
witnesses.
Q342 Chairman: Are you reading something?
Mr Gilligan: I am thinking about
the uranium from Africa claim, the fact that the CIA had warned
the Government not to include that in the dossier. That only emerged
through anonymous source journalism. I would respectfully submit
to the Committee that anonymous source journalism does have its
value and although I have tried to persuade my source to go on
the record, for obvious career reasons he is unable to, and I
must respect that confidence.
Q343 Sir John Stanley: The fact you
have just said that is clearly absolute confirmation from you
that your source is not Dr Kelly.
Mr Gilligan: I simply cannot add
anything at all to the evidence I gave about my source.
Q344 Andrew Mackinlay: It could be
a—
Mr Gilligan: I have just described
to you at length the reasons why I cannot characterise any meeting
I have had with any source.
Q345 Mr Pope: But you have made an
unsubstantiated claim against Alastair Campbell, you are quite
prepared to see his career disappear on an unsubstantiated piece
of oral evidence which has no backing whatsoever. We have not
had a shred of evidence before this Committee that supports your
claim.
Mr Gilligan: Let me remind the
Committee—
Q346 Chairman: Finally—
Mr Gilligan: May I just very quickly
answer that point from Mr Pope. The source made a number of allegations,
most of which have now been substantiated by other evidence available
to the Committee. The allegation that the 45 minute point was—
Q347 Mr Pope: We know that, but this
one has not.
Mr Gilligan: Hold on, his track
record has been pretty good actually.
Q348 Mr Pope: That is not the point.
Mr Gilligan: It is. That is another
reason why he should be given some credit. He was right about
the 45 minute point being uncorroborated; he was right about it
coming in late; he was right that the 45 minute point had been
hardened up from the original JIC assessment; and he has been
right about a number of other things.
Q349 Chairman: Sorry, right about
what?
Mr Gilligan: That passage I just
quoted to you from page 71 of your evidence volume corroborates
his allegation that the 45 minute point had been hardened up.
It simply says: "The original JIC assessment said that weapons
could be delivered to units within 45 minutes." The Prime
Minister's foreword said they could be ready within 45 minutes.
There is a difference, a hardening up.
Andrew Mackinlay: Well, just in case
the record is read, and I—
Chairman: We have agreed that this record
will be.
Andrew Mackinlay: Let me finish, Chairman,
for Christ's sake. In case this record is read, or when it is
read, I concur with the mood of all my colleagues here, the dismay
about some of the things we have heard this afternoon, but I want
it placed on record that we are seriously deficient as a Committee
by not having access to the Chairman of the JIC and the documents
we have sought. I have to say that prima facie, on the
face of it, I think that Parliament and this Committee should
be addressing itself to what has emerged from this Committee which
is prima facie serious failings in the competence of the
Security Intelligence Service. That is one of the things that
we are in danger of losing sight of. I want that placed on the
record.
Chairman: It will be on the record.
Andrew Mackinlay: The fact we have not
got access to it will be a continuing deficiency and flaw in our
parliamentary process.
Q350 Mr Illsley: Just to confirm,
you are telling this Committee that the BBC never made the allegation
against Alastair Campbell, is that right, you are simply saying
that the world and his grandmother drew the inference from your
source?
Mr Gilligan: No, I am not, that
has been misinterpreted. I welcome the opportunity, once again,
to set this straight. We are absolutely clear what the source
said. He said that the dossier was transformed at Alastair Campbell's
behest and the transformation included the inclusion of the 45
minute claim. I want to make that absolutely clear.
Q351 Mr Illsley: Are you saying that
the BBC never made the allegation that Campbell "sexed-up"
the dossier and inserted 45 minutes in it?
Mr Gilligan: No, I am saying exactly
what I have just said to you, exactly what I have just said to
you, Mr Illsley. The transformation was done at the behest of
Alastair Campbell. I have said this to the Committee. The transformation
included the insertion of the 45 minute claim.
Q352 Mr Illsley: I thought you said
to me a little earlier that you never said that Alastair Campbell
inserted the 45 minute claim.
Mr Gilligan: No, that was—
Q353 Mr Illsley: It was an inference
that anybody could reasonably draw.
Mr Gilligan: That was an over-interpretation
of what I said.
Q354 Mr Olner: By whom?
Mr Gilligan: I was simply trying
to make a pedantic point, of which far too much has been made
in this session. I want to put on record, once again, the source's
allegation was that the dossier was transformed at the behest
of Alastair Campbell. This transformation included the insertion
of the 45 minute claim. I want to be absolutely clear, we are
not resiling from that in any way.
Q355 Mr Illsley: Are you saying that
the BBC never made the allegation?
Mr Gilligan: No, I am not, I am
saying exactly the opposite, as I have done for about the fifth
time now.
Q356 Chairman: I think we have probably
gone round the track a number of times. Are you saying you had
only one source for the 45 minutes and Campbell?
Mr Gilligan: That is right, yes.
Q357 Chairman: You say you heard
the evidence this Committee received from Dr Kelly and he says
that he met with you and the 45 minutes and Campbell arose in
that meeting.
Mr Gilligan: As I said to you
in my letter, Chairman, when I spoke of four sources I was speaking
of people within the intelligence community who had expressed
disquiet about the Government's use of intelligence on Iraq. I
do, of course, have many other sources, including Ministry of
Defence officials, and I spoke to a couple of them in an attempt
to either corroborate or dismiss my primary source's story, getting
no result either way. I simply have nothing further to add to
that statement which I made to you in a letter, or to my evidence,
or to that of Dr Kelly.
Chairman: Unless there are any further
questions I will call this meeting to a close and the Committee
will deliberate and decide on the next steps. Thank you very much.
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