Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120-126)
27 JANUARY 2004
MR RICHARD
DOWDEN AND
DR STEVE
KIBBLE
Q120 Chairman: Here is
an area where you think the UK would be able to help.Dr
Kibble: I think so; it would be extremely useful.
Q121 Mr Chidgey: May I
take us a little further on UK/South African relations, if I may?
In some of the written evidence we have had from the FCO, the
relationship between the UK and South Africa has been described
as broad and deep and the two nations have shared diplomatic aspirations.
In other memoranda, we have seen the highlighting of the detrimental
effect that the failure of recent trade negotiations between the
developed and developing worlds has had. In our last evidence
session all of us agreed that this is a major issue affecting
UK/South African relations and there was a need to create more
even terms, an even field—I hate to use the phrase level
playing field, but that is more or less what we were talking about—in
trade terms. With that background and given your experience, how
would you assess the state of UK/South African relations at present?Mr
Dowden: I think they agree on a great deal, even on the
issues which caused the breakdown of Cancun. Britain was on the
side of the good guys, but maybe did not speak out loudly enough
at the time. Maybe they should almost have crossed the floor and
joined the group of 20. Obviously they cannot do that for other
reasons, but support for that position was very strong. Alec Irwin
is a major player in the group of 20, so in that sense Britain's
connections to South Africa are going to be important there. The
issues which have created the problems are Zimbabwe and AIDS,
which is less explicitly a bone of contention between South Africa
and Britain, although Britain is quite critical of the way the
government has handled it.Dr Kibble: There are several
key problems here. South Africa aspires to a leadership of the
non-aligned movement and places a lot of emphasis on multilateralism,
on the reform of global architecture like the IMF and WTO. Whilst
the UK is probably one of the good guys inside the G8 in terms
of receptivity, at least listening about debt, trade, aid, etc.,
it finds it difficult to break from that kind of solidarity. There
is a kind of symbiosis in that they need each other, but they
do not necessarily have to like each other. There are obviously
historic links; there are links between people who emigrated to
South Africa and the liberation movement, emotions which still
continue. There is the bedrock there for good relationships, but
they need to understand that each comes from a different perspective,
that South Africa is still finding its way and that it is only
ten years since the first democratic elections. Sometimes we expect
rather a lot too soon, whilst at the same time forgetting to remember
the whole of the history which has preceded it. There are difficult
shoals to negotiate and some are ideological, some are political
and some are structural to deal with the prestige and the viewpoint
of each, of their particular place in the world.
Q122 Mr Chidgey: You both
touched on the multilateral issues such as the reform of the CAP.
I am not quite sure whether you are saying to us that South Africa
recognises that we are one of the good guys, in your words, or
whether they are expecting more from us. Do they accept that we
only have a limited amount of control over the CAP, for example,
and the WTO? Or do they think we should be batting more strongly
for them and is that souring the relationships in any way? Or
are they being very mature about it and acknowledging that we
are doing our best?Dr Kibble: I would say that South
Africa learned a great deal from the negotiations with the European
Union over the Free Trade Agreement from 1995 onwards. It was
horrified at how hard-nosed the southern Europeans were inside
the EU and desperately looking for allies in the north. To some
extent Denmark, Germany, Britain did rally round and try to push
through a rather more liberal and accessible agenda, but were
obviously handicapped by the CAP, by the particular agricultural
producers inside the European Union. That experience has still
stayed with them in terms of what they expect from the West, from
the European Union, which is not that much, to be honest.
Mr Dowden: I certainly
think next year, with Britain being chairman of G8 and the EU
at the same time, an extraordinary position of influence in the
world, that they could use that to make some of these points and
pick up the issues of agricultural subsidies and trade and debt
and really push them in both those fora.
Q123 Mr Chidgey: That
leads quite neatly onto my final question. What should the FCO
be doing to strengthen the UK's political, cultural and economic
relationship with South Africa? Do you see the coming presidency
in terms of being the route by which we could do much more, or
are there other issues?Mr Dowden: The route being
through South Africa.Q124 Mr Chidgey: To South Africa,
yes. Are the positions coming up as president of the Union and
chairman of G8 the most opportune positions in which we could
strengthen our relationships with South Africa.
Mr Dowden: Yes,
indeed. It is partly that, but it is also being the voice of countries
like South Africa in the other fora. That is really what South
Africa and other African countries would like to see us doing:
Britain being a much stronger voice in favour of a better deal
on debt, on reducing agricultural subsidies, allowing Africa and
other countries to earn their place rather than have to wait on
aid. All those sorts of issues are the things which Britain should
do as chairman of the G8 and the EU.Dr Kibble: And
be sympathetic on achieving the millennium development goals and,
if I may add one note, helping South Africa to stage its bid for
the World Cup in football.
Q125 Mr Chidgey: So making
sure that we really do recognise that South Africa or Africa generally
should be a scar on our conscience.
Mr Dowden: That
is a very unfortunate term. On the contrary, recognising Africa's
independence and its strengths and treating them as equals far
more would be a better way of helping them.Q126 Mr Olner: The
UK has done a large amount in leading the international community
in reducing some of the debt of southern Africa and other developing
countries and if other countries came on board as far as we have
come on board, then the situation might be a little different.
Could you briefly tell us how South Africa plays with the United
Nations and bigger global packages which are on offer from the
UN?
Mr Dowden: My understanding
is that the South Africans are very strong supporters of the UN
and players there. I am trying to think of any area where they
have any problems with the UN. I cannot think of any.
Dr Kibble: One
of their beefs about the Iraq war was the fact that they very
much took the illegality view on that. The UN is in a sense a
protector for a middle level nation and when they feel that the
strong nations may be ganging up, there is not a lot in this forum
which provides any form of legal protection to nations and groupings
like the South Africans and they find the UN a bulwark in a troubled
world. They were very, very upset when the constitutionality of
the United Nations was under threat, or so it would seem to them.Chairman:
May I say on behalf of the Committee that you have used your
expertise for our benefit? Thank you very much indeed. We will
now move on to the second group of witnesses.
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