Select Committee on Foreign Affairs Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120-126)

27 JANUARY 2004

MR RICHARD DOWDEN AND DR STEVE KIBBLE

Q120 Chairman: Here is an area where you think the UK would be able to help.Dr Kibble: I think so; it would be extremely useful.

Q121 Mr Chidgey: May I take us a little further on UK/South African relations, if I may? In some of the written evidence we have had from the FCO, the relationship between the UK and South Africa has been described as broad and deep and the two nations have shared diplomatic aspirations. In other memoranda, we have seen the highlighting of the detrimental effect that the failure of recent trade negotiations between the developed and developing worlds has had. In our last evidence session all of us agreed that this is a major issue affecting UK/South African relations and there was a need to create more even terms, an even field—I hate to use the phrase level playing field, but that is more or less what we were talking about—in trade terms. With that background and given your experience, how would you assess the state of UK/South African relations at present?Mr Dowden: I think they agree on a great deal, even on the issues which caused the breakdown of Cancun. Britain was on the side of the good guys, but maybe did not speak out loudly enough at the time. Maybe they should almost have crossed the floor and joined the group of 20. Obviously they cannot do that for other reasons, but support for that position was very strong. Alec Irwin is a major player in the group of 20, so in that sense Britain's connections to South Africa are going to be important there. The issues which have created the problems are Zimbabwe and AIDS, which is less explicitly a bone of contention between South Africa and Britain, although Britain is quite critical of the way the government has handled it.Dr Kibble: There are several key problems here. South Africa aspires to a leadership of the non-aligned movement and places a lot of emphasis on multilateralism, on the reform of global architecture like the IMF and WTO. Whilst the UK is probably one of the good guys inside the G8 in terms of receptivity, at least listening about debt, trade, aid, etc., it finds it difficult to break from that kind of solidarity. There is a kind of symbiosis in that they need each other, but they do not necessarily have to like each other. There are obviously historic links; there are links between people who emigrated to South Africa and the liberation movement, emotions which still continue. There is the bedrock there for good relationships, but they need to understand that each comes from a different perspective, that South Africa is still finding its way and that it is only ten years since the first democratic elections. Sometimes we expect rather a lot too soon, whilst at the same time forgetting to remember the whole of the history which has preceded it. There are difficult shoals to negotiate and some are ideological, some are political and some are structural to deal with the prestige and the viewpoint of each, of their particular place in the world.

Q122 Mr Chidgey: You both touched on the multilateral issues such as the reform of the CAP. I am not quite sure whether you are saying to us that South Africa recognises that we are one of the good guys, in your words, or whether they are expecting more from us. Do they accept that we only have a limited amount of control over the CAP, for example, and the WTO? Or do they think we should be batting more strongly for them and is that souring the relationships in any way? Or are they being very mature about it and acknowledging that we are doing our best?Dr Kibble: I would say that South Africa learned a great deal from the negotiations with the European Union over the Free Trade Agreement from 1995 onwards. It was horrified at how hard-nosed the southern Europeans were inside the EU and desperately looking for allies in the north. To some extent Denmark, Germany, Britain did rally round and try to push through a rather more liberal and accessible agenda, but were obviously handicapped by the CAP, by the particular agricultural producers inside the European Union. That experience has still stayed with them in terms of what they expect from the West, from the European Union, which is not that much, to be honest.

Mr Dowden: I certainly think next year, with Britain being chairman of G8 and the EU at the same time, an extraordinary position of influence in the world, that they could use that to make some of these points and pick up the issues of agricultural subsidies and trade and debt and really push them in both those fora.

Q123 Mr Chidgey: That leads quite neatly onto my final question. What should the FCO be doing to strengthen the UK's political, cultural and economic relationship with South Africa? Do you see the coming presidency in terms of being the route by which we could do much more, or are there other issues?Mr Dowden: The route being through South Africa.Q124 Mr Chidgey: To South Africa, yes. Are the positions coming up as president of the Union and chairman of G8 the most opportune positions in which we could strengthen our relationships with South Africa.

Mr Dowden: Yes, indeed. It is partly that, but it is also being the voice of countries like South Africa in the other fora. That is really what South Africa and other African countries would like to see us doing: Britain being a much stronger voice in favour of a better deal on debt, on reducing agricultural subsidies, allowing Africa and other countries to earn their place rather than have to wait on aid. All those sorts of issues are the things which Britain should do as chairman of the G8 and the EU.Dr Kibble: And be sympathetic on achieving the millennium development goals and, if I may add one note, helping South Africa to stage its bid for the World Cup in football.

Q125 Mr Chidgey: So making sure that we really do recognise that South Africa or Africa generally should be a scar on our conscience.

Mr Dowden: That is a very unfortunate term. On the contrary, recognising Africa's independence and its strengths and treating them as equals far more would be a better way of helping them.Q126 Mr Olner: The UK has done a large amount in leading the international community in reducing some of the debt of southern Africa and other developing countries and if other countries came on board as far as we have come on board, then the situation might be a little different. Could you briefly tell us how South Africa plays with the United Nations and bigger global packages which are on offer from the UN?

Mr Dowden: My understanding is that the South Africans are very strong supporters of the UN and players there. I am trying to think of any area where they have any problems with the UN. I cannot think of any.

Dr Kibble: One of their beefs about the Iraq war was the fact that they very much took the illegality view on that. The UN is in a sense a protector for a middle level nation and when they feel that the strong nations may be ganging up, there is not a lot in this forum which provides any form of legal protection to nations and groupings like the South Africans and they find the UN a bulwark in a troubled world. They were very, very upset when the constitutionality of the United Nations was under threat, or so it would seem to them.Chairman: May I say on behalf of the Committee that you have used your expertise for our benefit? Thank you very much indeed. We will now move on to the second group of witnesses.





 
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