Examination of Witnesses (Questions 900-911)
BEVERLEY HUGHES
MP, MR BILL
JEFFREY AND
MR KEN
SUTTON
19 NOVEMBER 2003
Q900 Chairman: Minister, last time
you were here you expressed some frustration about the low penalties
for those who knowingly employ illegal workers. Somebody who knowingly
employs an illegal worker is committing a crime. Somebody who
makes their living out of employing illegal workers is living
a criminal lifestyle. Should it not then be possible to use the
Proceeds of Crime Act to get at the assets of those people who
are exploiting illegal labour, often paying them well below the
legal wage and exploiting their very vulnerability here? Have
you given consideration to using the Proceeds of Crime Act against
the employers of illegal labour?
Beverley Hughes: I think we are
certainly doing that at the moment. I think there are a number
of issues which raise questions as to how feasible that is, not
least in terms of—it depends who you are thinking about—your
average gangmaster who is operating illegally.
Q901 Chairman: Who lives in a nice
house and is perhaps an upstanding member of the community.
Beverley Hughes: It is that kind
of person. Some are not that kind of person and there is a question
about how much seizable assets some would have. Certainly, if
people are in that situation that you describe then it is something
that we ought to be looking at to be able to apply that Act.
Chairman: Thank you.
Q902 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: Minister,
I want to ask you two lots of questions, one on working relationships
with organisations dealing with people seeking asylum and a question
about Liverpool Prison. We have received so many critical reports
from agencies like the Refugee Council and many others that are
familiar to you, all of whom share similar concerns and identify
similar failures of your Department. The submissions we receive
are well argued and are often supported by Home Office research
which appears to be rejected when further legislation is being
considered by your Department. These organisations typically only
get one opportunity to respond to consultation documents but raise
questions and arguments in their responses which are never answered.
Having read these documents and submissions that we have received
here I am minded to think that they have already considered the
questions that we have presented to you and in many cases have
formulated answers based on extensive experience. What opportunity
do you give these particular agencies and these particular organisations
to come and meet you on a regular basis, and where do you argue
with them on the suggestions and the proposals that they put forward
to tackle some of the endemic problems that you are experiencing
in your Department?
Beverley Hughes: I have regular
meetings with a number of those organisations myself.
Q903 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: Such as?
Beverley Hughes: Particularly
the Refugee Council. I also chair the Refugee Integration Forum
which brings together a large number of those organisations and
I personally chair that meeting, and officials meet regularly
with representatives of those organisations both in subgroups
and in a forum but also routinely at very senior level with officials
from particularly the Refugee Council but also a group of other
voluntary organisations and the British Red Cross I have also
met. I think we do need to make more systematic—and I have
talked to Ken about this—the ways in which people meet at
senior official level and I think we can bring people together
with senior officials on a more regular basis than we have done
in the past, but since Ken has been appointed he has put in train
arrangements for that to happen, but since I was appointed I have
always had regular meetings, both with and without officials present,
with the chair and chief executive of whoever was in those positions
in the Refugee Council and in that situation the Refugee Council
acted as a conduit for a wide range of voluntary organisations
and put issues to me on that basis.
Mr Sutton: We now have in the
area of asylum support a committee who has looked at a number
of very difficult issues in that area. We now have a formal stakeholder
forum which brings together a wide range of the interested parties.
That has recently had two very successful meetings and we are
about to meet for the third time. So we are growing the range
of formal exchanges and making sure that our contacts with these
groups around the operational issues that are involved are guaranteed
and systematic.
Q904 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: It would
strike me as though we have got significant intelligence wrapped
up in these organisations which we are not exploiting. They seem
to come to common conclusions and in many cases have common conclusions
which appear to me to be rational. I just want to ensure that
we are trying to draw that together and I have your assurance
that that is the case.
Beverley Hughes: Yes.
Q905 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: Will you
be looking at the responses that this Committee has received from
these organisations and addressing the points that they raise?
Beverley Hughes: Yes.
Q906 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: Good, because
otherwise I shall be forced to raise them on their behalf myself.
Beverley Hughes: That is fine.
Q907 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: The next
question I want to ask you is concerning the detention of asylum
seekers. I have been in extensive correspondence with the Department
about people who have been detained in Liverpool Prison. These
asylum seekers are normally detained well after their sentences
come to an end and in many cases that can stretch to hundreds
of days and I want to know what the purpose is in detaining people
who cannot be repatriated to their own country.
Beverley Hughes: Can we just be
clear what categories of person this is. These are people who
will have committed a criminal offence and are serving a sentence?
Q908 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: The typical
crime they have committed is normally to resubmit an application
in somebody else's name after they have failed to gain asylum.
They are then sentenced to prison, they go to prison and after
their prison sentence has been concluded they are then retained
and they can be retained for weeks. I have the list in front of
me if the Minister wishes to see it.
Beverley Hughes: This is with
a view to deportation?
Mrs Curtis-Thomas: They come from countries
where they cannot be deported to. What are we doing about detainees?
Q909 Chairman: Perhaps you could
answer the general question and the more detailed case could be
followed up outside the Committee.
Beverley Hughes: I did make clear
to the Committee earlier the current situation with case law and
the way that is interpreted by our courts which does not allow
us, even if we wanted to, to detain people indefinitely unless
we have the reasonable prospect of removing people. We actually
do have to release people if we cannot re-document them within
a reasonable period of time or the situation in a particular country
is such that we have no chance of returning them. Without further
clarity about the particular group of people you are talking about
it is difficult for me to comment further than that.
Q910 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: You need
to know that dozens of people are being detained in Liverpool
Prison after their period of prison comes to an end and they cannot
be removed from this country because we do not approve of sending
them back to countries from whence they came.
Beverley Hughes: If you could
send me the details, a couple of particular cases would be helpful.
Q911 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: Finally,
I have one small question which is in relation to these detainees
accessing Legal Aid and legal representation being very difficult.
Moreover, they are supposed to receive monthly reviews and these
monthly reviews of their status do not generally take place. Are
you aware of that?
Beverley Hughes: Again I am not
clear what you are referring to there, Mrs Curtis-Thomas.
Chairman: What I will invite you to do
is give the information to the Clerk who can write on behalf of
the whole Committee about these cases and then we can share the
advice. It is slightly difficult for the Minister to know exactly
the circumstances, but if we can pursue it that away then their
replies will be on the record.
Mrs Curtis-Thomas: Chairman, this is
common practice and known to the Department.
Chairman: I think the best way for the
Committee to pursue it is to give chapter and verse to the Minister
and for her to reply to us as a whole and then it will it be on
the record as part of our deliberations. Minister, thank you very
much indeed for being with us this afternoon. We shall try not
to invite you again before Christmas! Thank you.
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