Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1
- 19)
THURSDAY 11 DECEMBER 2003
NICOLA ROCHE,
KATHERINE COURTNEY
AND STEPHEN
HARRISON
Q1 Chairman: Good afternoon, everyone.
Thank you for coming. Ms Roche, would you like to introduce yourself
and your fellow witnesses before we get into the questions?
Nicola Roche: Thank you, good
afternoon. I am Nicola Roche and I am Director with responsibility
for ID cards policy. On my right is Katherine Courtney, who is
the Director responsible for delivering the programme of ID cards.
On my left is Stephen Harrison, Head of Unit on ID cards policy.
Q2 Chairman: Thank you very much
indeed. This, as you know, is the first evidence session we have
had in our new inquiry into identity cards, so thank you very
much indeed for coming. We are sharply aware that, as a Committee,
whilst previous Select Committees have had a chance to look at
the principle of ID cards, we are the first Committee that has
had the chance to look in detail at a specific Government proposal.
So I hope that, in the course of this afternoon and also in future
evidence sessions, we will not only look at the arguments of principle,
but at the particular details of the particular solution the Government
has come forward with. Before I ask the first questions, perhaps
it would be helpful for Members if you could let us know how long
both the Identity Card Policy Unit and the Identity Card Programme
has been in place.
Nicola Roche: The Identity Card
Policy Team has been in place for about two years and did the
work on the consultation document that was published in July 2002
and has then been taking forward the consultation exercise. We
have then been doing a lot of analysis of the responses and working
that through with Government colleagues and from about June/July
onwards we have gone into an intense phase of planning the programme
and brought in people from both inside and outside Government
to put the programme team in place. We are working very closely
together. There is no separate programme team or policy team.
We are very much integrated.
Q3 Chairman: So the Policy Unit for
a couple of years and the Programme Team since the summer of this
year?
Nicola Roche: About six months.
Q4 Chairman: Okay, thank you. Could
we start by looking at how exactly the Government expects a universal
identity card system to help tackle some particular problems?
Could we start with the issue of illegal immigration and illegal
working? How exactly do you anticipate an identity card system
is going to help the Government and other agencies tackle those
problems?
Nicola Roche: Traditionally, as
an island, the UK has relied very much on our external borders
for our immigration control, but these days we have some 90 million
people a year coming through our ports and there is a huge global
movement of people. So what that means is that we really have
to look at all the controls and the decision that Ministers have
taken is that we need to move much more to internal controls and
an ID card scheme would be integral to that. In terms of how it
might work, we would build on passports and driving licences as
they were renewed. We would also make available . . .
Q5 Chairman: If I can just stop you
there. I do not want to cut you short because we will come on
to the details of the scheme, but on the assumption that at the
moment people are carrying an ID card. How exactly do you expect
that, in itself, to help tackle the problem of illegal migration?
Nicola Roche: When we move to
the compulsory phase, everybody who is legally here in the country
would have a card. So those that were here illegally would very
quickly be identified and clearly enforcement action would need
to follow. For those who did not have a card, life would be very
uncomfortable in that phase because what the Government has said
that they would want to do is make access to free public services
accessed through an identity card. So if you did not have one,
life would become very difficult. We would also expect that a
range of private sector services would also use the card.
Q6 Chairman: So in relation to illegal
migration, it would be essential to go to the second stage of
having a compulsory identity card before the identity card was
of great use in tackling illegal migration? Is that right?
Nicola Roche: Our analysis shows
that about 80% of the economically active population would be
issued with an identity card through passports, driving licences,
people who wanted a voluntary card or the issue of cards to 16
year olds. That would happen from about five years after the start
of the scheme, at the end of 2007-08. As the card is being rolled
out, the benefits would accrue on roughly the same phase. So maximum
benefits would be derived from when the scheme was fully compulsory,
but that is not to say that there would not be benefits before
a compulsory phase. There certainly would be. We would expect
employers would want to use the card to satisfy themselves that
people did have an eligibility to work in this country and that
could start from as soon as the card became involved. Ministers
have said that they would want the card to be mandatory for foreign
and EU nationals coming to the UK from the outset of the scheme.
Q7 Chairman: Let us be quite clear
about this; under the voluntary scheme 80% of the adult population
have got a card, 20% of the adult population do not and an unknown
other group of people have not got a card either because they
are not here legally. When they go to, for example, use the National
Health Service, how would the existence of any identity card for
80% of the population help distinguish between the 20% of people
who are perfectly entitled to use the NHS and the illegal immigrants
who are not? Both of those groups lack an identity card, how does
it help in those circumstances?
Nicola Roche: In the voluntary
phase, the situation would be as now, which is that it is for
each Primary Care Trust to decide on the eligibility of people
for services, but the onus is on the individual to prove
that they have that entitlement. So if you are here legally and
you have a card, it would clearly be a very effective way of proving
that you have an entitlement to NHS treatment, for example. So
how would it work in day to day? We would expect that illegal
migrants would find life increasingly difficult, but only in the
compulsory phase would it really bite severely.
Q8 Chairman: So effectively the illegal
migrant and the 20% of the population who do not have an identity
card, both of those groups of people would have to go through
some sort of enhanced test of whether they are entitled, for example,
to the NHS?
Nicola Roche: That is certainly
the plan for the second phase, for the compulsory phase.
Q9 Chairman: No, but even in the
voluntary phase. I am trying to see why in the voluntary phase
the identity card helps sort out the illegal migrants who are
not entitled to the NHS and whether you could do that without
having a high hurdle for everybody who does not have an identity
card to prove their entitlement.
Nicola Roche: At the moment, in
a range of situations, you are being asked to prove your identity.
That applies for the public services as well as private sector
services. What we are asked to produce at the moment are a whole
range of different documents and you have to carry a range of
different documents to do that. As an identity card becomes widely
recognised and used, we expect that that will become the gold
standard for proving your identity and for using services. So
that is why we would see it as enhancing the checks that people
do at the moment. But until we move to compulsory phase, the card
itself would not be the absolute key to those services. It would
be a very helpful way for services to confirm identity absolutely.
Q10 Chairman: What plans do you have
to change the legislation, either for illegal working or for access
to public services, to make it clearer how somebody establishes
their entitlement? As you say, at the moment there is not, as
I understand it, a well defined proof of entitlement to the NHS.
That is left to different parts of the NHS. Do you, as part of
this strategy, have plans to change the laws on entitlement so
that it is much clearer what a public service needs to see before
they can agree that somebody who does not have an ID card is entitled
to use the service?
Nicola Roche: What will happen
is that it will be for each public service to decide exactly how
they are going to use the card in specific circumstances and,
in checking the card, you will be able to do it to a certain number
of different levels. So a quick visual check of the card through
to a full online biometric check which will be able to explain
in more detail if you would like. The Draft Bill, which is for
publication in this parliamentary session, will set out the range
of services that could use the card and, broadly, we would expect
in the Draft Bill the circumstances in which it could be used.
Clearly, that would be for consultation and, of course, the Committee
would be looking at that as well.
Q11 Chairman: What is the logic in
saying that the requirement of proof of identity might be different
for the NHS, to schools, to the benefit system? You said different
public services would choose how to use the card, surely all the
logic is in favour of having a single level of test for all public
services so that everyone knows where they stand?
Nicola Roche: It certainly is
and in terms of having done the work with all Government Departments
over the last few months, it is quite clear that there are a number
of different thresholds in eligibility criteria for public services.
I think we all have an aspiration to make that as streamlined
as possible. So we will want to work together to make sure that
there is a clear message for the public on how the card is going
to be used and in what circumstances it would need to be used
as well. In terms of the detail of that, we are still working
that through.
Q12 Chairman: Okay. Moving on to
illegal working and still looking at the phase where an identity
card might be voluntary, so only 80% coverage, we have had evidence
in an earlier inquiry, including from the Minister, when we have
been talking about illegal working, how difficult it is, effectively,
to prosecute employers for having illegal workers because of the
difficulty of establishing proof of whether somebody is entitled
to work for them or not and not kind of hold them liable for checks
that they have reasonably made. That situation will not change,
will it, if there is simply a voluntary card?
Nicola Roche: No, but we would
expect the card to become more widely used or asked for by employers
as it becomes recognised as a gold standard of confirming identity.
The card would also have details about immigration status and
therefore being able to assess whether somebody had an eligibility
to work here. We can give more detail about how that would work
if that would be helpful.[1]
Q13 Chairman: I think that would
be useful because I would particularly like to know whether in
the voluntary phase, which is all the Government is committed
to so far, the law will be changed in any way to say that an employer
who employs somebody, despite the fact that they do not have an
identity card, would perhaps be more liable if they turn out to
have employed an illegal immigrant?
Nicola Roche: Clearly the details
of what will be in the Bill are still being worked through, but
the intention would be that, as now under the Immigration Act
Section 8, an employer has to satisfy themselves that somebody
has an eligibility to work. An identity card gives them a much
stronger base on which to take that decision, that would be used
in evidence in any case that was brought. So if they did not check
the card then clearly "Why not? You were able to do this,
you could have more established it".
Q14 Chairman: Have you made an assessment
of how onerous life is going to become for the 20% of the population
who choose not to have an identity card but nonetheless find an
identity card demanded in all sorts of circumstances? Or is that
part of the strategy?
Nicola Roche: It is not a deliberate
part of the strategy, but I think that if you ask most members
of the public, and these days you are asked to produce ID in a
range of circumstances through from cash back to taking a video
out to making financial transactions, and for the most excluded
in society or those who do not travel or do not drive, they are
finding it increasingly difficult to do that. We have had letters
from many members of the public saying that often they are having
to get a passport, even though they have no intention of travelling.
The full cost of the passport, plus the cost of a photograph,
£20 or so for a counter-signature—why not get a real
robust identity card scheme that enables people to have a Government
confirmed proof of identity? The big advantage of the scheme would
be that the price we would be charging for passports and driving
licences with the biometric ID element would allow us to cross-subsidise
the low incomed who would find it difficult to pay the full cost.
Q15 Chairman: Right, but you are
basically accepting that when we are in a world of voluntary identity
cards the difficulties faced by those who do not have them are
such that demand for them is likely to go up?
Nicola Roche: The demand will
increase in any case, as we are finding now anyway. This will
enable people to get a card, a voluntary card, if they do not
want a passport or a driving licence. But yes, life is increasingly
difficult without ID and the question of ID theft is very great
and this will actually protect people better.
Q16 Chairman: Okay. Just to pursue
one last issue about the purpose and crime. The Government have
said that the ID cards will help to combat crime in a number of
different ways. Again, looking at the non-compulsory stage, can
you give the Committee a couple of specific examples of where
crimes are currently being committed that it would be easier to
tackle with a voluntary identity card scheme?
Nicola Roche: Yes, I think the
first example would be ID theft which is a major component of
ID fraud, which are two slightly different things. ID fraud is
costing the UK economy about £1.3 billion a year and it is
an increasing problem. So having a secure Government confirmed
ID, by using the biometric with the National Identity Register,
will stop that happening. I think the second example would be
the use of multiple identities for money laundering. We estimate
that about 390 million a year of money laundered is through the
use of multiple identities. So we do anticipate the ID card would
bite on that.
Q17 Chairman: Even though it would
not be compulsory?
Nicola Roche: What we would expect
is that as the card is rolled out, so in the first phase, the
private sector would increasingly want to see an ID card. Already
they are asking for passports or driving licences, so an ID card
would be used, we would expect, in those circumstances.
Q18 Chairman: So effectively, although
the card is not compulsory in this stage by Government policy,
it will more or less become a requirement for many people to have
one if they want to carry out normal financial transactions like
buying a house or having other deals with an insurance company
or financial services company or whatever?
Nicola Roche: It is, but those
would be decisions for the individual companies. It would not
be imposed by Government, but it would be building on what they
are doing already and making those sorts of transactions much
more secure.
Q19 Chairman: But it would be fair
to say that in the Government's perspective those pressures to
have a card will build up both from the public and the private
sector, even though there is no requirement to carry one?
Nicola Roche: We would certainly
expect that.
1 See Ev 199-201. Back
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