Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60
- 79)
THURSDAY 11 DECEMBER 2003
NICOLA ROCHE,
KATHERINE COURTNEY
AND STEPHEN
HARRISON
Q60 Bob Russell: And of the applicant
nations?
Nicola Roche: I do not have that
information but I could get it and send it to you.[2]
For further information see Ev 198 footnote 26.
Q61 Bob Russell: If you could, that
would be helpful. So we are almost the odd one out at the moment?
Nicola Roche: We are, along with
Ireland and Denmark, yes.
Q62 Bob Russell: So what lessons
can we learn from other countries' experience, both the European
Union and indeed around the world, where other countries do have
ID, either compulsory or voluntary? Indeed, are there any voluntary
ones?
Stephen Harrison: Yes, the countries
which have strict compulsory schemes are Belgium, Germany, Spain
and Greece. The others have voluntary schemes, but there the level
of card coverage is usually so high, France is often quoted as
an example, that it is just a natural expectation that one would
be able to produce a form of ID that it is almost de facto
compulsory. We have looked at the experience of some of the countries.
In particular, we paid visits to Italy, Sweden and The Netherlands
to look at their particular schemes to see what lessons could
be learnt from there. Italy at the moment is moving from a paper-based
card system, an old cardboard type card used in the wartime, and
replacing those with an electronic plastic card which can also
record fingerprint information. We actually had a meeting with
them earlier this week. The Netherlands has a scheme which bears
a lot of similarity to what this scheme might look like in a few
years' time in that everybody does not carry an ID card or is
required to have an ID card. You have existing forms of identification
like passports and driving licences and residence permits and
they all form part of one over-arching scheme.
Q63 Bob Russell: In your evaluation,
have you rejected anything that any of the other countries have
which they think is a good idea but which you suspect is not?
And are there any things you have now incorporated which you had
not thought of until you saw them?
Stephen Harrison: At the moment
the discussions we have had with other countries have been ones
of principle and how their schemes operate at a very broad strategic
level. We did not get down to individual discussions about particular
technologies or approaches for how things work issues. Obviously
there are different schemes throughout Europe. Some schemes are
more centralised than others. Some rely on a central database
but then issue cards locally. Some keep all of the data held locally.
We have made some good contacts with colleagues in other European
countries and we will need to keep those going as we develop our
plans.
Q64 Bob Russell: Bearing in mind
all those different countries with different systems both within
the EU and out, in what way will the cards be mandatory for foreign
nationals?
Stephen Harrison: The card scheme
will work on the basis that their residence permits would be an
acceptable form of identity card. So it would form part of the
family of ID cards and it will be possible to require foreign
nationals coming to the country for a period of longer than three
months to register and obtain the document. That is not the law
as it currently stands, so that would form part of the legislative
change.
Q65 Bob Russell: Would that be compatible
with the constraints of European law?
Stephen Harrison: Yes.
Q66 Bob Russell: So will they have
to carry them at all times or will they, like a driving licence,
have time to produce them?
Stephen Harrison: It is not compulsory
to carry the card. I think that in terms of, particularly, cases
of immigration enforcement, for example, if you look perhaps towards
the harder end scenarios, if you take examples at the moment with
the Immigration Service, if an asylum seeker works illegally but
is caught by the Immigration Service in that situation, they will
not be carrying their application registration card because that
says "Employment prohibited" in very big letters, but
is possible for the Immigration Officer to make a check of the
biometric, the thumbprint, directly against the database and that
then brings up the fact that they have registered for asylum and
therefore they are not entitled to work.
Q67 Bob Russell: Nearer to home,
the Republic of Ireland, the Ireland Act of 1949, and it has been
indicated that they do not have an ID card scheme at the moment,
so how will you take into account the existing statutory provisions
concerning Irish nationals if the UK brings in an ID scheme?
Nicola Roche: As you know, with
Ireland we are part of a common travel area as well as with other
parts of the British Isles and therefore there are no border checks
between Ireland and the UK. The scheme we are proposing is based
on the residence, so an Irish person resident in the UK would
not have to have a card until the compulsory phase. Once we move
to compulsory phase, everybody resident in the UK would need to
have one. Before that phase, an Irish resident would be treated
either exactly as a person born in Britain with a British passport
under common travel area arrangements and, therefore, when they
come to renew their driving licence, that would be issued in an
ID card format, or they could opt to have a voluntary card if
they wanted one, or for Irish citizens if they chose to exercise
their rights as an EEA national they could have a residence permit
issued as an ID card.[3]
Q68 Bob Russell: So you could have
a situation where citizens of the six counties of Northern Ireland
would have a voluntary almost, but from what is being said, virtually
a compulsory ID card system to circulate within the United Kingdom,
but citizens of the Republic of Ireland would not?
Nicola Roche: No, people from
Ireland resident in the UK would be treated in exactly the same
way as everybody else, including in Northern Ireland.
Q69 Mr Singh: In these countries,
especially where the carrying of the card is compulsory, or to
have one is compulsory, do those countries believe that their
ID scheme has helped their fight against crime and their fight
against illegal immigration? Is there any evidence, if they do
believe that, to back up their claims?
Nicola Roche: Stephen may be able
to add a little bit more from his discussions with other European
countries, but the case that comes to mind, when you said that,
was the Belgian court judgment about some lorry driver facilitator
for illegal immigrants who did say that he thought one of the
pull factors to the UK was the fact that we did not have an ID
card scheme and that is why Belgium was not seen as a country
that was attracting illegal immigrants on the same scale, but
that was clearly his judgment. Our judgment is that an ID card
scheme, as we have set it out, would help us tackle illegal migration
and illegal working.
Q70 David Winnick: How much is all
this going to cost?
Stephen Harrison: The Home Secretary
in his statement set out the set up costs that we anticipate over
the initial three years of the scheme, which totals £186
million, it is a 36/60/90 split. What those set up costs buy for
you is; the central database on which we would record the identity
information; the other parts of the IT infrastructure, which would
allow you to do the checks that Katherine mentioned to properly
validate somebody's identity and the network of equipment that
will be required around local offices so that biometric information
could be recorded for the population as a whole. I think it is
worth observing that probably most of those costs may well have
to be incurred anyway if there is international movement towards
biometric passports.
Q71 David Winnick: On the basis of
a voluntary arrangement and then a compulsory one, what at the
end of the day would be the total estimated cost?
Stephen Harrison: We then have
the set of costs there, as I have mentioned. We then have a period
at which cards would be issued to the population and the Government's
policy position on that is that those costs should be recovered
through charges . . .
Q72 David Winnick: But could you
just give us the figure of what it is estimated to be at the end
of day, the cost involved, whoever meets the bill? We will come
to that in a moment, but what do you believe is the sum which
we should be working on if it comes from both the voluntary stage
and the compulsory stage? What is the round figure?
Stephen Harrison: I think in terms
of looking at that, forgive me for trying to give you a sort of
lengthier answer on this, I think it depends at what point one
draws the line because in a sense the scheme . . .
Q73 David Winnick: At the end of
the day, if Parliament approves, what would be the round figure?
Is that difficult to answer?
Stephen Harrison: What is the
end of the day in that sense? Even if you reach a point—
Q74 Chairman: Mr Harrison, in the
Government's consultation document last year you published a figure
£3,145 million.
Stephen Harrison: Yes.
Q75 Chairman: Is that still your
estimate?
Stephen Harrison: There was actually
a range of figures which were published and what that was based
on was adding costs and we talk about the period at which you
cut it off. That was based . . .
Q76 Chairman: Is that our best figure?
Stephen Harrison: We have better
estimates of some of the detailed costs that have gone on.
Q77 David Winnick: You seem to be
rather evasive about this. I understand you are not a politician,
Mr Harrison, but you seem to be following in certain footsteps
of politicians, perhaps including myself, you do not want to give
a straight answer. All I want to know, Mr Harrison, I know it
is difficult and all the rest of it, if you can give some sort
of round figure. Now, the Chair has quoted one from the consultation
document, just give the round figure if there is, as I have said
before, at the end of the day a compulsory scheme. How much is
it going to cost at this stage?
Stephen Harrison: On the consultation
paper there was a range of costs and it varied from about £1.3
to about £3.1 billion. We believe that if you look at a comparable
costing for the period of that scheme, the consultation period
envisaged which was 13 years, then our cost estimates still lie
within that range.
Q78 David Winnick: Which range? Quote
the figure yourself. Which range?
Stephen Harrison: The 1.3 to 3.1
billion. There are a lot of detailed assumptions underlying that
cost. Our information gets better as we do more analysis and we
learn more. We would be happy on a confidential basis to share
some of those assumptions with Members of the Committee. What
we are concerned about at this stage is just the commercial confidentiality
of giving too much away at this stage before entering into commercial
. . .
Q79 David Winnick: You have been
very cautious, Mr Harrison. Congratulations. Would it be right
to say that, as with other estimates, one will find that the actual
cost is substantially more than what is being planned at this
moment?
Stephen Harrison: We do our best
to identify all of the costs that we can. In terms of our work
on costs, we have been quite conservative in our estimates. As
I say, the information we can share with you, and we can give
to you in confidence, I hope would illustrate that. Of course,
the work that Katherine outlined in terms of the further work
on feasibility and testing will help us actually to understand
whether the assumptions that we have made to date actually work
out in practice and so over time we would expect the certainty
of our cost estimates to increase as they are informed by real
experience.
2 Note by Witnesses: All but Latvia and Lithuania
have cards. Slovenia has a compulsory card but only for those
citizens who do not have any other form of photo ID. EEA States
which are not in the EU: Norway: No identity cards. Iceland: No
identity cards, but a national identity number and a citizens'
database. Liechtenstein: Cards may be obtained on request, but
it is not necessary to carry them. Switzerland: Swiss nationals
have cards which are not compulsory. The cards are valid for travel
within the EU. The details are exactly the same as in a passport
and both documents can be issued at the same time (Switzerland
is not a member of the EEA, but Swiss nationals benefit from the
free movement rights provided by the Treaties). Back
3
Note by witness: The status of Irish nationals under the
Ireland Act 1949 would remain unchanged. In practice, they could,
as now, choose to be treated on an equivalent basis to British
nationals or as citizens of an EEA country. Back
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