Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100
- 119)
THURSDAY 11 DECEMBER 2003
NICOLA ROCHE,
KATHERINE COURTNEY
AND STEPHEN
HARRISON
Q100 Janet Anderson: When the whole
population, do you think?
Katherine Courtney: To reach the
whole of the population would probably require a move to compulsion,
so I cannot give an estimate of when that would happen.
Q101 Janet Anderson: You do have
some proposals for a combined passport identity card, I think
that is mentioned, and a combined driving licence identity card.
Katherine Courtney: Yes.
Q102 Janet Anderson: Presumably for
passports, driving licences and identity cards you would have
three different databases? Is that right?
Katherine Courtney: Yes.
Q103 Janet Anderson: Will they be
able to talk to each other and do you ever see a point where you
may want to combine the whole lot into one IT database?
Katherine Courtney: Passports
and drivers licences have already, as those two agencies have
been doing quite a lot of work together, working very closely,
on both the initial checking of applicants and also verifying
documentation against each other's databases already. We are effectively
looking to build on the good practice that they have already been
working on.
Q104 Janet Anderson: And that is
working, is it?
Katherine Courtney: Yes. In terms
of whether those agencies might ever be combined into a single
agency, really the structure and function of agencies is a decision
for the Government of the day, so I am not able to comment on
that.
Stephen Harrison: There will be
one record of identity established in the National Identity Register,
on which those documents then hang off. Each of those agencies
continue to need their own database so that, for example, specific
medical information the DVLA might hold about you which might
affect your entitlement to drive stays only with DVLA and is owned
by DVLA. The basic core identity information like name, address
and date of birth sits once on the shared National Register.
Q105 Chairman: We have a number of
elements to the system; we have the database, we have the physical
job of collecting the biometrics, we have the production of the
cards, we have the administration system and so on. Which of those
different functions, potentially, could be carried out by private
sector companies rather than by public sector institutions?
Katherine Courtney: As
you know, we are now entering into what we call the "project
definition stage" of this project and the design of the solutions,
both from the business process and technology perspective, is
exactly what we are looking at over the coming year. So it is
premature for me to be able to give you any idea of how private
sector companies might be involved in the eventual delivery of
that solution.
Q106 Chairman: Are there any areas
that have been excluded at the moment from being delivered by
the private sector?
Katherine Courtney: I do not believe
that any firm decisions have been taken on any of the designs.
Q107 Chairman: So the database itself
could potentially be run by a private sector organisation?
Katherine Courtney: I think you
would want to distinguish between who has authority over the database
and which entity actually does the operational day to day technical
maintenance of the database and again no decisions have been taken.
Q108 Chairman: Is that a clear distinction
in your mind?
Katherine Courtney: It is a clear
distinction in my mind, yes.
Q109 Chairman: Right, but I mean
the police national computer, for example, is maintained by the
police. The Criminal Records Bureau has access to it. That is
not the same as saying that the Criminal Records Bureau, God help
us, should run the police national computer.
Katherine Courtney: Yes, but I
think the specific question was about private sector organisations'
involvement in this scheme.
Q110 Chairman: Yes, I am just trying
to be clear; in principle, have you excluded the idea that the
database could be run and managed and effectively controlled by,
not necessarily owned by, controlled by a private sector organisation?
Katherine Courtney: Again, I can
only say that these are all issues that are being explored during
the design phase.
Q111 Chairman: So nothing has, as
yet, been excluded. So the job of requiring people to turn up
and have their irises photographed, their fingerprints taken,
could be potentially be contracted out to a private sector organisation?
Nicola Roche: As Katherine said,
all of this is still under consideration but potentially yes.
Q112 Chairman: Okay. Clearly production
of plastic cards or whatever happens all the time in credit cards.
Clearly there are some things that would raise no eyebrows, there
are other areas where people might think it was more sensitive
to have a private company taking responsibility for an activity.
Are there any principles that are governing whether you think
a private sector company could do the job or is it simply likely
to be cost and deliverability?
Nicola Roche: I think absolutely
essential to this scheme is ensuring that people's personal information
and their biometric that they give to us on a confidential basis
to keep secure is honoured and that in storing that on the database
that we make sure that whoever is running it, whoever has access
to it is going to be keep it secure. So that would be a guiding
principle throughout and that people's civil liberties are absolutely
protected and that there is no way that information could be passed
to somebody who did not have a legitimate right to see it.
Q113 Chairman: Do you expect the
Draft Bill to define those areas that can be put out to tender
and those that are restricted to public sector operation?
Nicola Roche: I am not able to
give you an absolute answer on that today, but it is clearly something
that we will take back to discuss with Ministers.
Q114 Chairman: You recognise it is
an important issue?
Nicola Roche: Yes.
Q115 Chairman: In terms of the private
sector, you have talked about banks, financial institutions, solicitors
or whatever who might wish to use the card; to what extent will
you be designing the card and its content around the requirements
of private sector users as opposed to public sector users like
Benefits or Health?
Katherine Courtney: The design
of the scheme throughout the consultation period to date, coming
up with the initial concepts, etc., has been in consultation with
private sector organisations as well as public sector. The financial
services sector, for instance, has expressed quite a lot of interest
in the possibility of using this scheme to prove identity in the
future. So the design of the scheme is meant to be putting in
place capabilities that are effective and cost effective for a
whole range of situations. That runs from potentially a small
retailer wanting simply to, if date of birth, for instance, is
reflected on the face of these cards, maybe just wanting to be
able to use a very simple check for proof of age. On the opposite
end of the spectrum you may find that for major financial transactions,
a bank may want to be able to perform a verification check of
that identity against the database and will be exploring possibilities
to make that feasible for them.
Q116 Chairman: Suppose a financial
institution came and said what would be really useful would be
for the card to carry details of major criminal convictions?
Katherine Courtney: I think we
have been quite clear that the function and the purpose of the
scheme and the function of the card and the system itself is to
verify identity. There is no intention to hold any other information
about individuals.
Q117 Chairman: So that would be a
straight no to any institution that asked for extra information
to be carried in other than the identity information you have
already told us about?
Katherine Courtney: Absolutely.
Q118 Chairman: What other departments
and agencies are being involved alongside the Home Office in developing
the biometric and other technologies?
Katherine Courtney: We have been
working very closely not only with colleagues in other Government
departments here and across the Home Office, both with the DVLA,
who have been looking at this issue, with UK Passport Service,
who have done quite a lot of work due to the requirements that
are placed upon them now by evolving standards in the international
community and also the Immigration Service has done quite a lot
of work in this area. But in addition to that, we have been working
closely with other countries, with EU partners, with the US and,
for instance, taking a very active role in the G8 Working Group
on Biometrics.
Q119 Chairman: How much is the technology
going to change? At the moment when you have your iris scan, you
have to sit down, I think, in the special booth or in front of
a camera. I presume, given I was hoping to get this wonderful
mobile phone camera for Christmas, that in 10 years' time a police
officer will probably be able to carry a camera capable of doing
an iris scan in the street and checking it against a card. Have
you looked at how the technologies will change over the next 10
years and what the circumstances are likely to be when the new
card is brought into force?
Katherine Courtney: Certainly
the work that has gone before with the National Physical Laboratory
study and the consultations that we have taken with the industry
sector through, for instance, Intellact, has informed the decisions
that have been made to date in designing the preliminary concept
for this scheme in terms of how we are going forward. We are looking
at future proofing the scheme. Obviously there is no point in
building something that is obsolete before we launch it. I cannot
predict for you how the technology will change.
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