Examination of Witnesses (Questions 560
- 579)
TUESDAY 27 APRIL 2004
RT HON
CHARLES CLARKE
MP, RT HON
JOHN HUTTON
MP AND MR
CHRIS POND
MP
Q560 David Winnick: If I can turn
for a moment to the Health Minister, and in some respects you
have answered the question, is there not this danger that however
keen you are yourself, as you have indicated, on an ID card, inevitably
if there is a compulsory card in due course, when one goes for
treatment in an emergency and the rest of it, the first question
which will be asked, and if the person concerned, the patient,
is not in a position to answer, then a close relative, is for
evidence of an identity card as for any other public services?
Mr Hutton: Well, that will not
be the case in an emergency. Emergency treatment will continue
to be free at point of use and we are not going to chase people
into the operating theatre, asking for their ID cards.
Q561 David Winnick: No, I said a
close relative.
Mr Hutton: Well, as I say, in
relation to emergency treatment, that is always free and we are
not changing the basic rules on that.
Q562 David Winnick: I am not really
suggesting that with a compulsory ID card, people would not get
emergency treatment, and I would not want to give that impression,
but what I am coming back to is that the ID card is required almost
certainly when one goes to a hospital or, for that matter, to
the GP for the first time?
Mr Hutton: Yes, and what is wrong
with that? The basic proposition, Mr Winnick, I think, is this:
that there are rules about who is entitled to free NHS care and
I think we have got a decision to make here in this House and
our society has about how we want those rules to be properly policed.
At the moment, as I have suggested in my earlier comments, we
are making very good efforts to try and clamp down on potential
abuse, but I believe, rather like Charles Clarke, that with identity
cards it will allow us to improve our effort in tackling abuse.
I think the question about how frequently an NHS patient will
need to confirm their entitlement to free NHS care is a very,
very important point. What we do not want is an endless waving
and flashing around of cards every time one thinks of going to
see their GP or a community nurse comes out to change a dressing.
That would be over the top and unreasonable, but I think at key
moments it is absolutely right, given that we do set the rules
in this House for who is entitled to free care, that we provide
a better and more robust system for someone to demonstrate their
entitlement. I think the example you have given of when you first
register with a GP, that is a perfectly reasonable point, I think,
to confirm your entitlement to free NHS care and I think the majority
of people would say that is not unreasonable. I think it is probably
also true that in relation to the first in a series of hospital
appointments, outpatient appointments or whatever, that that is
also the case and I think there is an argument too for periodic
checks as well because a person's residency and immigration details
can change over time. Therefore, I think it goes with the terrain,
that if you are going to have rules, you have to ask yourself,
"What is the best way to enforce them?" At the moment
there are checks in place and people are required to prove their
entitlement and at various points in the process they do that.
I think the point about ID cards is just that it makes it more
straightforward.
Q563 David Winnick: Well, that is
a very straightforward answer and, as you may or may not agree,
the argument on ID cards varies from day to day. Usually it is
about terrorism and you have given us a very frank answer, but
you see, Minister, we are also told that when there is a compulsory
ID card scheme, again if it comes about, it will not be necessary
to carry the card. Now, of course what you are saying in effect
is that when you are asked for the card, and quite rightly for
various reasons there could be valid reasons, if the person is
genuine and does not have the card on him or her, problems will
arise arising from what you have just told the Committee.
Mr Hutton: I think there are likely
to be cases when that happens and I think we would want to try
and make sure that the NHS had as much flexibility as possible
to deal with those situations. I would not want to argue that
care would be withheld or withdrawn for somebody who did not have
an ID card, but who was able to establish satisfactory confirmation
of their entitlement to free NHS care.
Q564 David Winnick: But the whole
emphasis once the ID card comes into being is that it should be
produced along the lines that you have indicated.
Mr Hutton: Yes, I believe that,
but I think, as I also made clear earlier, there will be some
cases where someone will be entitled to free NHS care, but will
not be required to carry an ID card and in those circumstances
that person will clearly need to have other evidence of their
entitlement.
Q565 Bob Russell: Mr Hutton, you
have given the assurance that accident and emergency departments
will not be requiring identity cards when treatment commences
and presumably ambulance drivers likewise will not be searching
for identity cards, but at some point a road-crash victim or indeed
any patient may be transferred into a hospital ward, not discharged,
so at some point they are going to be asked, are they not, about
their identity card, so what happens if they have not got an identity
card?
Mr Hutton: Well, then they will
be liable, so if they cannot prove their entitlement to free NHS
care, that treatment will be chargeable.
Q566 Bob Russell: How can they prove
they are entitled to it if they are a UK citizen, but they choose
not to have an identity card?
Mr Hutton: Up until the point
where it becomes compulsory to have one?
Q567 Bob Russell: Yes.
Mr Hutton: Well, there are other
ways. We do not have ID cards now and people are able to establish
their entitlement to free NHS care. They will have a passport,
a driving licence; a variety of different evidence can be accepted.
Q568 Bob Russell: Mr Clarke, the
identity cards, as far as you are concerned, are relevant to post-16
education. Can you give an assurance that as this is going to
be an entitlement card, any tuition fee debt will not be included
within the data contained on an identity card?
Mr Clarke: Well, we have not looked
at the detail at all. I think I can give that assurance, but,
to be quite candid, we are going down the process of considering
consultation on this very carefully and we have no plans whatsoever
for that kind of data to be included on an identity card of that
kind. It is not an entitlement card, it is an identity card that
we are talking about here, but it is for checking the access to
the various services which are there, different from the NHS's
medical services, to ensure that people are entitled. We will
look very carefully and follow very carefully the Home Office's
consideration of these questions to see how cards can be developed
and in what way they can be, but the precise use of them is something
for further consideration and carrying forward. What I am certain
of is that in each of those four areas I mentioned, they will
help us develop our programmes of support for individuals.
Q569 Mr Prosser: Mr Pond, I want
to ask some questions about the practical aspects of identity
checking. If in five years' time Mr Winnick has an identity card—
Mr Clarke: Is this fantasy or
reality!
Chairman: An early volunteer!
David Winnick: I am afraid not!
Q570 Mr Prosser: Seriously, how often
would you expect Mr Winnick to have to show his identity card
for checking to access your services?
Mr Pond: Well, Mr Prosser, in
the run-up to, in the period before identity cards become compulsory,
if they do become compulsory, there are a number of ways in which
they might represent, as I have said, a simpler and more secure
means of verification. For instance, where people are coming to
claim various forms of benefit, the ID card would be probably
the preferred form of identification. Now, where people are coming
to claim a benefit, such as Jobseekers' Allowance or Income Support,
where they are expected, and would expect, to come along to one
of our establishments, such as the jobcentre, to register their
claim or perhaps to have an interview about their work options,
then of course we would expect the card to be presented, and there
are about 750,000 people claiming, for instance, Jobseekers' Allowance
at the moment. In other cases where increasingly we are trying
to make sure that people can claim their entitlements perhaps
over the phone, as with Pension Credit, then of course the identity
card is at the moment going to be used in very much fewer cases.
Post-compulsion, we would expect in those circumstances as well
that we would have fairly automatic backroom checks, if you like,
against the National Identity Register to make sure that the person
who was presenting the card matched with the characteristics that
were on the register and of course it would then be a yes/no reply,
so the number of people and the balance of people will change
over time as we have the take-on period towards the identity cards
becoming more universal and perhaps compulsory.
Q571 Mr Prosser: You have mentioned
one benefit for the customer, the citizen, and that is convenience.
Are there any other benefits you can think of?
Mr Pond: I think for the customer
one of the main further benefits would be that we do recognise
that there are a number of groups who are not receiving the benefits
to which they are entitled. We have recently launched a campaign
for the take-up of Council Tax Benefit and, as you know, we are
driving forward on Pension Credit take-up which, from the latest
figures, show there are now 2.9 million pensioners receiving that,
so well on target. If we were to have the information on the register
and if it was introduced in such a way that it fits with the modernisation
of our own processes, that might make it much easier for us to
make contact with those people to ensure that they knew about
their entitlement and had an opportunity to claim, so I would
hope that as well as being a more effective and secure check against
benefit fraud, this might also be an option for us to improve
take-up.
Q572 Mr Prosser: After identify cards
come in, if they come in, would you expect your staff to be making
more checks of identity than they are now or about the same?
Mr Pond: I think it would probably
depend on the design of the card, Mr Prosser. Inevitably, with
benefits such as for those of working age where people's circumstances
are changing on a more frequent basis, then we would expect the
checks would be more regular. For pensioners where, as with the
Pension Credit, on the whole we are saying that once we have the
information, we will not be troubling those people for another
five years, one would expect that the identity card checks would
also be much less frequent than it would be, for instance, for
jobseekers.
Q573 Mr Prosser: You say in your
evidence that many of the checks would be done without the person
or without the card physically being present?
Mr Pond: Yes, we would be able
to do it on a backroom and a semi-automatic basis by checking
with the register and, as I say, making sure that the information
we were being given, perhaps the number on the card, did match
with the details that were on the register and of course we would
hope that in this process there would be some link between an
identity card reference number and a National Insurance number.
That is still an issue open for debate about whether a National
Insurance number would be the appropriate unique identifier, but
if the decision in the fullness of time was that it was going
to be a totally new number, we would need to make sure that those
two matched up.
Q574 Mr Prosser: Are you in a position
now to estimate the proportion of checks which would be taken
backroom as opposed to front office?
Mr Pond: I think, Mr Prosser,
that is going to change over time. At the moment we are probably,
and perhaps I could do a note for the Committee on this,[3]
but my guess is that we are talking about roughly fifty-fifty,
but over time we might expect that to change because increasingly
we are hoping that people who received a disability benefit, such
as the DLA, or pensioners will be able to make their claims without
actually presenting themselves at one of our establishments and,
for that reason, it may be that that balance will change in the
process of the voluntary introduction of the identity cards.
Q575 Mr Prosser: There is no relationship,
is there, between the introduction of identity cards, the ease
with which identity can be checked with the Government's wish
to reduce quite dramatically the number of civil servants in your
Department?
Mr Pond: No. Certainly I have
no information about the impact that this would have on the numbers
involved, but certainly it has not been factored into any of the
discussions we have had on the reductions in staff numbers in
DWP.
Q576 Mr Prosser: Have you given any
thought to the number of biometric readers the Department would
need?
Mr Pond: We have given some thought
to that, Mr Prosser. It is fairly high-level estimates at the
moment. These estimates were actually provided, I think, to the
Committee in the Home Office data. We think probably we would
need 4,500 of the readers to cover mainly the Jobcentre Plus establishments,
but also some for those parts of the DWP concerned with the National
Insurance numbers alongside Inland Revenue.
Q577 Mr Prosser: How would they be
paid for?
Mr Pond: We would have to seek
funding for that from hopefully within departmental budgets. As
I have said, we are expecting that there will be considerable
savings, administrative savings as well as the savings on the
amount of benefit lost through fraud, as a result of this process,
and I would expect that a part of the costs would be met through
that, but I have to say it is early days and no decisions, by
definition, can be taken on that until we are a lot further down
the road.
Q578 Mr Prosser: In the evidence
from the Department, you say that access to the ID card database
would need to be "sufficient to facilitate the counter-fraud
efforts we envisage". What does that mean?
Mr Pond: Well, it means really
that we need to be in a position in certain circumstances where
we have significant evidence that a serious crime is being committed,
like benefit fraud, and very often of course this can be organised
crime, that we will have access to the register without the consent
of the person whose identity details we are seeking. I have to
stress that that is only that minority, probably a very small
minority, of cases where we believe, as other agencies may believe,
that a serious crime is being committed. In other cases of course,
it would be with the consent of the person because, as part of
the normal process as it is now of claiming a benefit, you have
to establish what your identity is in order to be able to claim
a benefit now, and in order for us to be able to make sure that
we can verify that identity, we would require the consent of the
person to check those details.
Q579 Mr Prosser: Picking up the point
of your rights perhaps or your wish to have special access without
consent, is that over and above the powers you have got now or
do you need separate legislation on the powers?
Mr Pond: No, it is very much in
line with the powers that we already have under the Fraud Act[4]
and all we are doing, I have to stress, is changing the method
of verifying someone's identity and we are not changing anything
about the substance of those powers or the process of checking.
3 See Ev 175. Back
4
Note by witness: The Social Security Fraud Act 2001 (often
referred to as the Fraud Act). Back
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