Examination of Witnesses (Questions 380
- 386)
TUESDAY 20 MAY 2003
MS JAN
SHAW, MR
MICHAEL KINGSLEY-NYINAH,
MR TOM
BENTLEY AND
MR THEO
KEENCAMP
Q380 Mr Clappison: Thank you for
that. Can I ask Mr Kingsley-Nyinah a question just about the marginals
he was concerned with earlier. When you were telling us about
the transit processing centres which you envisaged, I think you
said you envisaged that they would accommodate people in secure
conditions, which I know stimulated some interest with the Committee.
Given that you envisaged those for that system, is there any reason
why people should not be held in secure conditions who apply to
this country now?
Mr Kingsley-Nyinah: UNHCR's Executive
Committee, our governing body, has set out some guidelines on
the detention of asylum seekers and we have extracted from those
guidelines and provided a framework of principles and precepts,
if you like, so that is our yardstick for addressing questions
of detention. We start from the position that detention should
be avoided to the extent possible, and the way to avoid detention
is to ensure that alternatives to detention, such as reporting
requirements, are explored and, if they fail, then perhaps detention
may be justified. Also, we refer to certain criteria, for example,
the point at which detention is imposed, and we frown upon detention
other than detention immediately prior to removal. We are concerned
about the conditions of detention and also about the detention
of vulnerable individuals, for example, victims of torture, of
single women with small children and children full stop and, in
some instances, families who may have vulnerable individuals,
like special needs children, among their midst. I am sorry to
say that from the direct experience we have with the detention
regime, there are many respects in which these guidelines are
not followed in UNHCR's view. Our concern would be, yes, with
the fact of detention per se, we grudgingly accept that
some detention may be necessary on the very strict criteria we
have laid down, but our experience is that once we have said that
detention is possible on certain conditions, states are not very
scrupulous in meeting those conditions. In terms of the procedures
that we are suggesting within the EU as far as processing is concerned,
it would be one of our most paramount concerns to ensure that
the criteria for detention are satisfied, particularly with regard
to high standards of treatment. There is no necessary divergence
between our views in that regard on the European continent and
here.
Q381 Chairman: Thank you. Mr Keencamp,
are any asylum seekers in Holland detained, either prior to removal
or on arrival?
Mr Keencamp: As a rule, only prior
to removal, and for the rest, not. We do have, especially in the
first phase, reception centres' reporting obligations, but the
centres basically are open.
Q382 Chairman: Yes. Your system sounds
remarkably similar to ours actually, including many of the problems
we have encountered. It sounds as though you have encountered
them too?
Mr Keencamp: Right.
Q383 Chairman: Can I just ask each
of the witnesses in conclusion whether there is anything they
want to say which they have not been given an opportunity to say
today? Ms Shaw?
Ms Shaw: Just one point really.
I do not think that we should be looking at the asylum system
as a silo. I think there needs to be a lot more joined up thinking,
if you like, in approaching the asylum problem. You have to look
at foreign policy, the export of arms and many other criteria
when you are looking at this kind of situation. I would like the
Government to be much bolder in citing why some asylum seekers
have a genuine reason for coming to this country rather than just
hiding behind the numbers.
Q384 Chairman: Thank you. Anybody
else? Mr Kingsley-Nyinah?
Mr Kingsley-Nyinah: Yes, please,
a few pointers. UNHCR fully sympathises with the issues with which
you are grappling. We take an international perspective and we
are very aware that these are very real issues that you are dealing
with. We want to remind the Committee that asylum issues are governed
by an international framework to which the UK has signed up, so
in many respects it is the challenge of balancing the international
responsibilities with the UK's own national interests. We believe
that such a balancing process is very possible if care is taken
and if certain protection principles are carefully taken into
account. Also, I would say that we understand the need for the
public to have confidence in the asylum system, and we think that
the powers that be could probably do a little bit more to shore
up faith in the institution of asylum. For that reason we absolutely
support the need for reforms because it is through the reforms,
such as the ones we have proposed, that public confidence in the
asylum system can be restored and maintained.
Q385 Chairman: Thank you. Mr Keencamp?
Mr Keencamp: We had the nerve
to think through a serious attempt to discover a way for more
effective flow management—the management of migration flows—which,
in the end, is more in the interests of receiving countries, sending
countries and the migrants themselves, than continuing to rely
on classical control measures, as they all make a part of the
present policy theory. We think it is worthwhile to find ways
to connect this way of thinking with the first steps of change
being contemplated by your Government, my Government and UNHCR.
Q386 Chairman: Thank you. Mr Bentley?
Mr Bentley: One last area which
has not come up for discussion, which I do not want to present
on but just to identify. In our analysis, as is also the case
clearly in your deliberation, public concern about the consequences
of higher levels of migration needs to be taken very seriously.
People's fears should be addressed, that is right, but in our
analysis it is also the case that a technical solution for these
very complex issues will never be sustained unless there is also
a responsible positive agenda for cultural change in promoting
inter-cultural civic relations; people's understanding of each
other and of other cultures. We need a political and a policy
agenda for that. I do not know how far this Committee's investigation
of this issue will extend, but even identifying the need for that
in positive terms might help the debate.
Chairman: Thank you very much Ms Shaw,
Mr Bentley, Mr Keencamp and Mr Kingsley-Nyinah. Thank you very
much for coming. You have been very helpful. The session is closed.
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