Examination of Witnesses (Questions 640
- 659)
TUESDAY 9 SEPTEMBER 2003
MR MOHAMMAD
FAHIM AKBARI,
MR ZEMMARAI
SHOHABI AND
MR HASHMATULLAH
ZARABI
Q640 Mrs Dean: May I just ask Mr
Shohabi one question relating to your travels to get here in the
first place? In the document we have you say you actually tried
to claim asylum in Italy and France and that you were basically
told to go away. Is that the case?
Mr Shohabi: When I was taken to
Italy I thought "This is Italy. I am safe. I can speak English
so there is no problem for me and I can stay here. It is not a
problem and after six or seven months I can learn". When
I went to the police, they did not listen to me and they punched
me and kicked me. I said "What a country! If the police are
like this then the people will kill me". I did not come to
be abused, I did not come to be sworn at, I did not come to be
punched, I came to save my life. It is better to be killed in
your own country, in front of your mother and not be punched or
kicked or imprisoned as I was imprisoned in Paris. I arrived and
I was very, very tired, really tired and they put me in the back
of a lorry and when the police came I said I was sorry but I was
very tired and I could not take any more. Take the others and
please let me go. They said "Okay, come down. Where do you
want to go?" I said "I don't know. Someone said it is
going to the UK, but there is water and I do not know how this
lorry is going to cross the water". They said "No. Come
down". They took me off the lorry and I said "Okay,
if you don't want me to go, I want to claim asylum". They
said "Okay, come on". The police officers beat me on
the back with batons and they beat me two or three times on my
back. I said "Please, my back is broken. I was in prison
under the Taliban and you can see this is bleeding". He said
some things in French and I thought maybe he was upset because
I was in the back of the lorry and I said I wanted to claim asylum.
They brought an Iranian lady interpreter for me. I said I wanted
to claim asylum. They said "Okay, no problem, sign this paper".
I said "I don't know what is written, bring me English if
you cannot bring me Dari. Bring me Farsi or Dari or English so
I can read it". They said "That is not a problem, we
can leave you to go to England". I said "I don't want
to go to England". When I signed, they sent me to court and
I was put in prison for two months in Paris. That is the asylum
process. What do you think? If you leave your family, if you leave
your country, your mother, your town, everything, your childhood,
where you were brought up and you come here and you claim asylum
and they send you to prison. I thought that was enough for me,
thank you Paris and thank you Italy. I shall go to the UK. I came
to you and you said "Most welcome", that was enough
for me.
Q641 Mr Prosser: I just want to ask
a couple of questions about asylum support, the support you received
when you came in. You told us about the reception you had, the
interviews. What is your view of the level of support, accommodation,
advice and help, not having gained exceptional leave to remain
but when you still had the status of asylum seekers?
Mr Akbari: It was okay. After
having spent so much time on the way, once you enter you are put
in an hotel, you enjoy eating food and you can walk around and
then you are given vouchers. At first they were food vouchers
and people would look down upon you when you changed them, but
when they changed to cash vouchers it was okay and you were appreciative.
Mr Zarabi: About the accommodation
which asylum seekers are receiving now, it is okay but those who
do not claim at their first point of entry are in big trouble.
We are working for the Migrant Helpline and we do know of people
coming there and we cannot help them because under the NASS decision
they have to wait on the street and at night they are just waiting
there and it is very, very hard for them.
Q642 Mr Prosser: Is this the Section
55 argument?
Mr Akbari: Yes.
Q643 Mr Prosser: I do not really
want to go into that at the moment, though it is very important.
Mr Zarabi, you came in in 1999. At that time there was no real
structured arrangement, it was emergency accommodation and then
you would live locally informally. Since your time in this country
and certainly with your Migrant Helpline hat on, you will have
seen the introduction of a structure, of the induction centres,
induction courses and the one-stop shops. How much of an improvement
and how valuable is that to the incoming asylum seeker?
Mr Zarabi: Apart from the Section
55, everything was okay, everything was all right and all asylum
seekers were very, very happy with that and we were happy with
that because we wanted people to transfer; we were happy with
that because we could service people later.
Mr Akbari: Regarding these induction
centres, they are incredibly useful because they brief you, give
you information about what will happen, how long you will stay
and what to do in this country when you sometimes face small-minded
people who abuse you and these things. You do not know. Sometimes
you look at someone and something like racial harassment happens
or something like that. They talk about everything such as when
to leave your hotel, what to do, what rights you have, what responsibilities
you have in this country. You are taken through a very useful
induction course, information-giving sessions. They enjoy it and
afterwards you know where to go, how to seek solicitors.
Q644 Mr Prosser: You mentioned the
value with regard to the possibilities of racial abuse, discrimination.
What have been your experiences of racial abuse, discrimination
etcetera?
Mr Akbari: When I first arrived
I stayed in a hotel for some time and then I came to London. I
had a contact or something like that. When I found my present
employment with the Migrant Helpline I began to function as an
interpreter there. So I moved to Dover and in Dover people do
not like asylum seekers at all and they cannot differentiate between
those people working and paying taxes and those people who have
just arrived.
Q645 Mr Prosser: How do you experience
what you call "dislike"? I know people in Dover, I live
in Dover, so I have a feel and I know there is a feeling of hostility
in some areas. How does it manifest itself? How do you feel it?
Mr Akbari: Sometimes it feels
disgusting. We were in a queue buying together and someone—he
looked very posh—came and he said "You"—something
bad—"scum". My friend did not understand and he
was laughing. I knew that word and I asked whether he knew what
had been said and he said no. I told him in our own language that
it was material on the surface of the water or something like
that. Sometimes these words get on your nerves and you cannot
control yourself and usually when we talk on the phone they abuse
us, but we ignore it mostly. It does not apply to all people but
most of them there, though when we come to London we do not see
much of this.
Mr Zarabi: Sometimes it is much
worse than that. Sometimes we have been attacked on the street
for doing nothing, by youngsters, normal people, throwing glass
and stones.
Q646 Bob Russell: Gentlemen, the
Taliban were overthrown nearly two years ago, so what is to stop
you going back to Afghanistan?
Mr Akbari: I told you that I was
accused of being a Christian. In 1992 my father was a military
officer and we went to Pakistan to avoid being persecuted by the
Mujhadeen. We stayed there for some time and then the circumstances
changed in Pakistan and the police were forcing people to go back
to their country. So we were forced to go back to our country.
There I was accused. In Pakistan I learned English and I was educated
at an American institution or something like that. When I was
given some materials they included references to the bible and
these things. In order to teach students in a proper fashion we
used those materials. Once I came here and I studied the bible
I saw a story which was contained in that material and lots of
those things. So the Taliban had very strong intelligence and
they just tracked me down and when they came they said they would
like to check my material.
Q647 Bob Russell: But now, two years
on.
Mr Akbari: The point is that I
was accused of being a Christian and spreading this and you might
have heard on the news that in Afghanistan lots of people, especially
if you are an Afghan and they think you have become a pagan and
have changed your religion, they do not care about this now, they
are still an Islamic state.
Q648 Bob Russell: That would not
apply to every Afghan living in this country, would it?
Mr Akbari: I was talking about
myself because I cannot return. I was accused of being a Christian
and if I enter even friends and relatives will accuse me of escaping
from the country and being accused and being a Christian. You
know they do not like Christians and even the people do not like
them.
Q649 Bob Russell: That is your case.
What about other cases?
Mr Zarabi: I was educated in Afghanistan
and I enjoyed more in Afghanistan than I do here. I will go back
to Afghanistan because I want to participate in the rebuilding
of my country, but I still need some time because the situation
in Afghanistan is not good yet for me to go there.
Mr Shohabi: May I make a political
point about Afghanistan? Since the Russians came to Afghanistan—and
they left Afghanistan in 1986—many people were working for
the Government, like me, like my family, thousands and thousands
of people, a million people. When the regime changed they did
not care what your responsibility was and what you did they said
you were a Communist. When the Mujhadeen finished and the Taliban
came they said you were a Communist and Mujhadeen and they accused
people and they killed people and they punished and they tortured
people. Right now, when you go back there is no difference between
those parties. If you go back, they have just thrown their turbans
away and they are the same people.
Q650 Bob Russell: All three of you
are now working in this country, you are all employed, you are
all paying taxes to the public purse.
Mr Akbari: Yes.
Q651 Bob Russell: I think we need
to put that on the record because there is a perception that that
is not always the case. You are all gainfully employed and all
paying taxes.
Mr Akbari: Yes.
Q652 Bob Russell: Where do you see
your future?
Mr Zarabi: Me, personally?
Q653 Bob Russell: You wish to return
to Afghanistan. You fear you cannot return and I take from what
you are saying that your long-term return to Afghanistan is not
yet in sight.
Mr Akbari: I should like to say
with regard to your previous question that it is true that the
media and the television and these things say it is safe and secure,
but it is not. There we have warlords and lots of people are killed.
It is just Kabul. My family, as I said at the outset, left and
they are now living in Pakistan. They would rather go back to
Afghanistan to live, because there we have our land, our houses,
but even my family cannot go. Why? Because we have the same commanders
committing lots of atrocities. All those commanders have been
given positions, such as those people in our home town who were
murderers, who raped people, who molested children and all these
things; now you can see that they are the governor and they have
been promised powers. So if people return and they have some enmity
and hostility with those people they persecute you. They do not
care about the laws.
Q654 Bob Russell: I am grateful.
What you are saying in very simple terms is that it is still not
safe to go back.
Mr Akbari: It is not safe.
Mr Shohabi: Anyone who says Afghanistan
is safe is completely wrong.
Q655 David Winnick: I think we have
all listened with much interest. Do you accept, leaving aside
the people who have made insulting remarks about you, which you
will find in any country and which is totally inexcusable, that
most British people will recognise that genuine asylum seekers
have a claim to come here? However, there are many who are not
genuine, hence the debate which is taking place in this country.
In other words, there is a limit to how far Britain can accept
people from various countries in the world and often those countries
where there is violent conflict.
Mr Akbari: I should like the British
authorities to set up a system to track down those bogus asylum
seekers. There are millions of people who enter—
Q656 David Winnick: Millions? Are
you suggesting that there are millions?
Mr Akbari: It could be millions,
because lots of Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and these people
come here on a student visa and they stay. Those people sometimes—
Q657 Chairman: Just to be clear.
You are not talking just about asylum seekers, you are talking
about people who never claim asylum but who become illegal immigrants
without going through the asylum system.
Mr Akbari: Yes. When we talk about
Afghan asylum seekers, at least you have seen what the Taliban
did, what the Mujhadeen are still saying and they are still firing
rockets and these things and we have bomb blasts and these things,
so they do have problems. But what about the other countries?
They come here and they claim to be asylum seekers, so if they
are tracked down and then they would pave the way for the genuine
asylum seekers and they would enjoy their rights. Yes, I do appreciate
that most English people like genuine asylum seekers.
Q658 Chairman: Could I just press
you on that point? When you talk about people who come on student
visas who overstay, when you talk about bogus asylum seekers,
are you talking about people who come on student visas and then
claim asylum or simply about people who come, for example through
that route, and just stay on without every applying for asylum
or going through those procedures?
Mr Akbari: Yes, there are some
people. For example, if they are Pakistani people and they speak
the Pashto language as we do and they look like us, they claim
to be Afghans and they are not banned. Those people who come from
other parts of Pakistan where they do not know the language, they
just stay because they are not tracked down by the police.
Q659 David Winnick: Surely all this
proves is that whatever criticism there may be of immigration
officials, Home Office people, immigration officers, have a very
difficult task, have they not, to distinguish between those who
say they are genuine asylum seekers and those who are not?
Mr Akbari: Yes, that is it; it
is a difficult task.
Mr Shohabi: Yes, it is difficult.
It is very important. If the Home Office wants to decide to recognise
an asylum seeker's nationality, it is not difficult. For me it
is not difficult; it is difficult for the Home Office. Maybe the
Home Office should consider it. I am an Afghan, I am not English—
Chairman: We have another witness and
I do not want to repeat the exchange you had with Mrs Curtis-Thomas,
which covered that very well.
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