Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120-136)
9 MARCH 2004
RT HON
BEVERLEY HUGHES
MP, MR DENIS
MACSHANE
MP, MS LORRAINE
ROGERSON AND
MR STEPHEN
HEWITT
Q120 Chairman: The question that has
been posed to me by some voluntary sector organisations which
currently offer assistance to failed asylum seekers who have not
been removed is that some people may seek to turn to the voluntary
sector for sustenance rather than state benefits in the unlikely,
in my view, event they are unable to find a job in the current
environment. I am just trying to get a sense of whether there
are any realistic plans to attempt to remove anybody from this
country to any of the accession states should somebody fall into
that position?
Beverley Hughes: Unless they were
on the streets causing a problem, those people will have a right
to be here as EU Nationals. What we are actually saying is that
they will not have a right to be supported by the state. The opportunity
open to them is to work, not to be supported by the state. It
really does not make any sense to mobilise any special removal
process because we could not implement it, they have a right to
be here. We would simply take action, as we would against any
person from any country who is misbehaving.
Q121 Chairman: The de facto rule
is if they are here and they are alive and not breaking the law
there is no basis for their removal. That is what I understand
the position to be.
Beverley Hughes: That is right.
Q122 Chairman: In your estimation, is
there any danger in the current labour market that people will
be unable to get legitimate jobs paying national tax, National
Insurance, who will seek work in the illegal market or do you
believe that your proposed system provides sufficient protection
for people that they will overwhelmingly work legally?
Beverley Hughes: As I say, that
is an opportunity that we are giving to the A8 nationals. I cannot
see in terms of the scheme, given that there is the opportunity
to work legally, that there is any incentive at all for people
to remain in illegal work in the black economy.
Q123 Chairman: Will there be efforts
to educate incoming workers about the nature of the illegal work
market? I have heard anecdotal stories even within the last 12
months of Portuguese workers working in the illegal market because
the people who brought them here had not explained that they had
a right to be here anyway. Will there be a package of information
that explains how the legal labour market works?
Ms Rogerson: There are two schemes
that the DTI are engaged in in giving the information. One is
with Portuguese workers but also those of the A8, where their
governments have agreed, giving information to people thinking
of coming about the nature of what you have to do to work here
legally, deductions and rights and that sort of thing. Also, the
intention is that we should work with the Health and Safety Executive
and others to provide a small sheet to accompany those registration
certificates saying, "These are the rights of the worker
legally in this country".
Q124 Chairman: One final question on
wages, if I may. Minister, earlier you said quite clearly that
one of the benefits of the approach should be that it stops people
undercutting the minimum wage. If you are currently working in
this country for, say, £6.50 an hour, well above the minimum
wage but not well paid, and somebody comes in and is prepared
to do the job for £5.50 an hour, that may be uncomfortable
for the person who is currently on £6.50 an hour. Can you
give the Committee a sense of how much impact there would need
to be on wage rates in the unskilled labour market before Government
felt it would be necessary to step in and take the tougher measures
that you talked about earlier?
Beverley Hughes: That is a very
difficult question. It would depend on the concern. The DWP is
monitoring the impact on the labour market. I understand the point
you are making absolutely. The Home Office have not made that
assessment, nor attempted it, it would not be for us to do so
because it is the impact on the labour market, which is for DWP.
Mr Hewitt: There is not much I
can add. We were talking about monitoring earlier on. We have
the registration scheme to let us know who is working where and
in what numbers and we will have the labour force survey which
provides quite up-to-date and detailed information about the impact
on the labour market, jobs, vacancies and so on. It will then
be a matter for ministers' judgments as to whether or not the
impact of the accession is such that they would wish to consider
going back on the arrangements that have been announced.
Q125 Chairman: Have your ministers given
any indication of what they would regard as a significant impact
on the labour market?
Mr Hewitt: No.
Q126 Chairman: They have not as yet?
Mr Hewitt: No.
Q127 Chairman: How regularly do you intend
to report to your ministers on any discernible effects on the
labour market, on things like wage rates, labour supply and so
on?
Mr Hewitt: That is something which
we will do monthly as far as labour market impacts are concerned.
Q128 Chairman: Given that a couple of
people at one end of the spectrum will have no impact whatsoever
on anybody's wage rate but 20 million will have quite a big impact,
do you have any sense in the department of how many people might
need to come into, say, the unskilled labour market before there
is any discernible effect on the existing wage rates on offer?
Mr Hewitt: I cannot give a very
helpful answer to that question. I think these effects may well
be quite localised were they to happen. It may well be that they
would be of a very short-term duration because the labour market
has a way of sorting itself out. I really cannot be helpful. All
I can say is that ministers are aware that this is a potential
danger. It is not something which they regard as a very high risk
but they are determined to monitor it and to keep the matter under
review and to take steps if necessary.
Q129 Chairman: Minister, earlier you
referred to—I think you used the expression—community
cohesion as one of the factors you are seeking to balance. Have
you, through the Community Cohesion Unit or any other way, set
up mechanisms to identify perhaps the localised effects that Mr
Hewitt has described, perhaps the impact on one town, one industry,
something of that sort, and to ensure that a swift response is
made should there be localised pressure, even if there is no impact
on the national economy?
Beverley Hughes: If you go outside
the specific labour market effects, which we depend on DWP to
report to us, we have moved quite a long way now in terms of regular
monitoring on issues that might be impacting on community cohesion
in various places and integrating into that process issues that
arise as a result of asylum seekers, in other words linking IND
and the Community Cohesion Unit much more strongly with a joint
group that spans both of those organisations that produces regular
reports on the community cohesion impacts, if any, on issues around,
at the moment, particularly asylum. We intend to feed into that
this dimension as well and we can make sure that the report encompasses
the impact of accession.
Chairman: Thank you. Mr Clappison?
Q130 Mr Clappison: On the question of
benefits, without going into the argument as to whether or not
benefits are an attraction, can I seek a little bit more information
about the benefits which are to be restricted, particularly following
the Home Secretary's announcement of 23 February. There will be
no benefits available to somebody who is not working, that is
right, is it not?
Mr Hewitt: Yes, that is right.
Q131 Mr Clappison: What about in-work
benefits, such as tax credits, Working Tax Credits, will they
be available to people who come here?
Mr Hewitt: Yes. The proposition
is that those who come here and work, and work legally, will be
treated exactly the same as a UK National. They will have access
to all in-work benefits, including tax credits.
Q132 Mr Clappison: So that will be Working
Tax Credits. What about Child Tax Credits?
Mr Hewitt: Yes.
Q133 Mr Clappison: Will it make any difference
if the family is with them or not? Will it make a difference to
their claiming for the family in the state of origin?
Mr Hewitt: I believe their family
would need to be with them.[4]
Q134 Mr Clappison: What would be the
position, for example, after one year? Will they have access to
all benefits after one year?
Mr Hewitt: After one year if they
lose their job, as the Minister has described, they would then
be able to claim Jobseeker's Allowance.
Q135 Mr Clappison: In relation to access
to the health service and other public services, what would happen
if somebody had been working for six months and suddenly fell
ill, would they be entitled to NHS treatment or not?
Mr Hewitt: My understanding is
that those who fall ill are entitled to be treated under the existing
reciprocal arrangements. The people that you describe who have
not been working here for a year would not be entitled to receive
treatment for conditions that pre-existed their arrival in this
country.
Q136 Mr Clappison: That would apply to
somebody who had not done any work yet?
Mr Hewitt: Yes.
Chairman: Can I thank you very much indeed,
officials and Minister. I hope you enjoyed the afternoon, Mr MacShane,
taking a break from the normal routine. Thank you again, Beverley
Hughes, for coming.
4 See Ev 24
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