Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-99)
12 JUNE 2003
MR MIKE
ASH, MS
DANILA ARMSTRONG,
MS IMOGEN
SHARP, MS
PATRICIA HAYES,
MR ALEC
MCGIVAN
AND MS
MELA WATTS
Q80 Chairman: It strikes me if we
do not have that knowledge centrally, this is something the Board
ought to look at. I can think of schools in my area which have
had to battle for sports halls and sports facilities, in areas
where the health people are telling me we have serious problems
of obesity. Is it not possible somehow to make those connections
between information on lack of sports facilities and information
from the Department of Health about people being obese, overweight
or with serious health problems?
Ms Watts: That is what we are
trying to do with the database I was describing, but one of the
problems about the data out there now is that we are not always
comparing like with like, and that is the reason for having a
joint project, to try and bring all of that data together, so
that we can make an across-the-board assessment of where we really
are. There are, of course, anecdotal stories about excess facilities
in one area, absolutely no facilities in another, but those are
not judged on a like-for-like basis, which is exactly why we are
having the database. But in the mean time, until we have that
full picture, the government is committed to doing something about
the quality and quantity of facilities, hence, as I say, the NOF
investment and the Space for Sport and the Arts investment.
Q81 Andy Burnham: None of that money
has hit the ground in my area. Is that going to happen soon? It
seems to me that sports facilities are something basic. You just
need to get the changing rooms and have the pitches laid. That
policy was conceived a long time ago now, and we still have not
got a penny out to schools. Are you worried about that?
Ms Watts: You will know, obviously,
from your position that the programme was never designed to have
every single penny out in the first six months. It was always
designed to develop some serious, significant projects that would
inevitably take time, and the plan is for all of those programmes
to come on stream by 2005.
Q82 Andy Burnham: Has any gone out
yet?
Ms Watts: Yes. There will be about
a dozen fast-track projects through that scheme up and running
in September of this year.
Q83 Andy Burnham: Do you think there
is a grip now on the issue of selling off playing fields. We have
had reports that some have still been sold off since 1997. Can
you tell us how many have been sold? What is the net figure: how
many have been created and how many sold?
Ms Watts: I think we have a very
good grip on the problem. You refer to the measures that mean
school playing fields cannot now be sold off without the Secretary
of State's permission, without an absolute assurance that they
are not necessary either for school use or indeed for local community
use. The third factor there is that all the money that is raised
through the sell-off of playing fields is to be re-invested into
education or related activities. The figure I have for playing
fields since 1998 is that 125 have been sold off. Fifty of those
were as a result of school closures, and with the remainder of
those, all the resources were ploughed back into improving the
facilities either at that particular establishment, that particular
school, or indeed locally. In 2002, as a full year, the figure
is 22 sales of playing fields, of which 11, half of them, were
for school closures, and with the other 11, all the resource freed
up by that sale was, again, ploughed into either the schools in
question or into local facilities. I think that is a pretty good
grip.
Q84 Andy Burnham: Can I ask you about
after-school activities? There has been a huge decline in competitive
fixtures between schools. The Secondary Heads' Association said
there had been a 70% decline in the number of fixtures that schools
played following the mid-Eighties' teachers' strike. Is there
any inherent antipathy towards competitive sport within the educational
establishment? Many of us just want to see that as an absolute
mainstay of the school week, and back at the heart of young people's
development, the chance to play sport competitively against other
schools. Is there more that can be done in that area, do you think?
Ms Watts: Your first question
was whether there was antipathy towards competitive sports. My
simple answer would be no, but in saying that, I do think it is
important to recognise that competitive sport for some young people
is an incredible motivator, a really exciting and stimulating
thing to do, but for other young people it is a real demotivator,
and we need to recognise that balance sensibly.
Q85 Andy Burnham: That does not mean
you do not provide competitive fixtures in schools.
Ms Watts: No, and I did not say
that. I am saying that, in thinking about the place of competitive
sport, one needs to think about motivating and demotivating effects
of doing that.
Q86 Andy Burnham: What would you
say to the suggestion that it is often the children who are hardest
to engage, who might not perform as well in the classroom, who
are often most engaged by sport? Clearly, there is a very important
role there for making them feel good about themselves, that they
can do something well. Do you think we are doing enough in competitive
sports in schools?
Ms Watts: One of the key features
of the School Sport Co-ordinator Programme, which, given your
history at DCMS, I assume you know something about, is to re-energise
that inter and intra competitive team games.
Q87 Andy Burnham: I know that was
the policy, but I am wondering how many children it is touching.
It is a great thing, building back up from low levels, but surely
we need to pay teachers to do it. That would solve it overnight.
That was the basis of their dispute: "We're not going to
do things for which we are not being paid", and I understand
that. Taking a minibus of kids to play rugby league is no small
undertaking. Why not just pay teachers to do it? Would that not
get school sport back to the heart of the school week?
Ms Watts: Paying teachers is certainly
one way, and the Standards Fund that the Department allocates
to local authorities for study support activities—so really
everything that goes on outside core school hours—breakfast
clubs, after-school activities—can be used to pay teachers;
it can be, but it does not have to be. But I think it would be
wrong to play down the enthusiasm, passion and commitment that
a huge swathe of the teaching profession actually gives to a variety
of after-school activities, and does so voluntarily.
Q88 Andy Burnham: Can I just come
at it in a slightly different way? Under performance-related pay,
if good weighting were to be given to teachers who take after-school
sporting activities and competitive fixtures, running school teams,
could it be promoted on the pecking order beyond the criteria
by which people use performance-related pay, so people who do
put in the time and make the effort are adequately rewarded?
Ms Watts: The performance management
system and the pay system can be used in a variety of ways, innumerable
ways, and what you describe would certainly be feasible, but it
opens up a number of questions about whether that would also apply
to after-school music clubs, to after-school drama clubs? I could
go on.
Q89 Andy Burnham: It should do.
Ms Watts: There is a significant
question there about the use of the performance management system
and the pay system for teachers.
Q90 Andy Burnham: This is a question
for Mr McGivan. In your job, you must have a vision for how you
would like school sport to be. Just talking ideally, what would
you like to see and how far are we from it?
Mr McGivan: One of the reasons
why the words "high quality" are in our PSA target is
that it is not just about the amount of time, but the experience
that the child actually has. Sue Campbell, who is an advisor to
both departments in this area and very much involved in the programme,
said to me that the critical word is "enjoy"; it is
about enjoyment. High-quality teaching of sport is not simply
about throwing children out on to a field, which is what many
of us may remember as not a particularly enjoyable experience.
It is the quality of the coaching and the quality of the experience
which ultimately leads on to the reasons why we are discussing
obesity and other things today. If children leave school with
a bad experience, an unenjoyable experience of sport, they drop
out very quickly, and it is very hard to get people back.
Q91 Andy Burnham: What is the balance
between the quality of the facilities and the quality of the activity?
It is very important to have good facilities.
Mr McGivan: Clearly, the facilities
issue is important, and I am glad Mela covered this point about
the facilities database, because I think that is long overdue,
to have a better view of what exists. One of the other big messages
from Game Plan and the strategy in the report is that you have
to take a more holistic approach to sport. It is not just about
facilities; it is also about human resources, it is about the
quality of teaching, the quality of coaching. It is not just about
supply: here are the facilities; please come and use them. It
is also about looking at the barriers that people face, either
as children or as adults, whether that is lack of information,
lack of transport or lack of resource. You have to look at the
picture as a whole. That is quite a strong message to sport, that
it is not simply a question of rolling out facilities, important
as that is, and important as the NOF programme is. That on its
own is not a sufficient answer.
Q92 Andy Burnham: You did mention
that not all kids like competitive sport or the traditional sports,
and I acknowledge that completely. What are the Department doing
about that in terms of other opportunities within schools, be
it aerobics, dancing, gym, swimming? What is the Department doing
to try and give access to these kinds of other, non-traditional
activities, possibly particularly to girls?
Ms Watts: You are absolutely right.
Certainly, gymnastics and dance are already part of the physical
educational side of the National Curriculum. Those opportunities
are already there; they are set out in statute. Certainly at Key
Stage 4, 14-16 year olds, where this problem, particularly with
girls—I think you are right—might become even more
obvious, we are recasting the statutory programmes of study to
have a real emphasis on activity and health-related activities,
and I think aerobics and similar things are likely to feature
quite largely in that.
Q93 Andy Burnham: What proportion
of schools are offering those opportunities to an adequate level?
Ms Watts: I really do not know,
I am afraid. I could not give you a percentage.
Q94 Chairman: Can I ask Mr McGivan
a question? I know Sport England are currently undertaking what
they call a Domesday survey on sports facilities. How will that
link into the database that Ms Watts has talked about?
Mr McGivan: It is the same thing.
It is the name sometimes given to the Facilities Database Programme.
I have to say that the funding for that has only just been put
in place, which is one of the reasons why it is behind. Quite
a lot of the work has been done, and we are expecting some outputs
later this year, but I think it will be some time next year before
we get a comprehensive picture.
Q95 Chairman: What I wanted to pursue
is how that Domesday survey, or whatever you want to call it,
will link into the Department of Health's knowledge about the
morbidity in certain areas. I go back to the example I gave Ms
Watts about the fact that one of the worst health areas in my
constituency has battled for years to get its main secondary school
a sports hall. You say you have no knowledge of the sports facilities
across the board. It seems to me wrong somehow that the Department
has consistently turned down their bids—fortunately, it
has now been approved—over many years. There has been no
connection between the Domesday survey of DCMS, the Department
of Health's knowledge about morbidity levels and very serious
problems in this particular area of my constituency, and your
evaluation of that bid. Can I assume that, with the interconnection
we are talking about now, that might change in the future?
Ms Watts: I would certain hope
that the enhanced interconnection between the departments will
help us to take those decisions in a more rounded way.
Mr McGivan: I think that must
be one of the remits for the Physical Activity Board, to get our
act together, and where there is information on facilities which
is forthcoming, that it is not one Department that looks at it
but it is across Whitehall and we try and make use of it as a
common tool.
Q96 Chairman: So you think there
is a way forward for this new Board to look at the point I have
made?
Mr McGivan: Yes.
Ms Watts: Could I add to what
Mr McGivan said? I think one of the questions started by talking
about the Sport England data about take-up of physical activity,
and that is another area in terms of the information we have about
take-up where there is a raft of data but it seems to be different
sorts of data taken from different sorts of places, and it is
incredibly difficult to compare in a sensible and meaningful way.
I hope that one of the things that the Sport and Physical Activity
Board will do is tackle that issue in the same way as Mr McGivan
was talking about facilities, so that we have a common understanding,
a common agenda.
Chairman: We might assume from this that
there will be more attention paid to those sports that do genuinely
address social exclusion and health issues in some of the areas
we have talked about.
Q97 Andy Burnham: Rugby league.
Mr McGivan: I think that is right.
You will be aware that the PESSCL, the School Sports Programme
is currently working with seven particular sports, and I know
there is concern that rugby league could be playing more of a
part in that. I am aware of the concerns, because I have discussed
them with the Minister for Sport. We are also aware of that in
the context of the Community Club Programme. In fact, the Minister
has recently written, following discussions, to cricket, tennis,
football and rugby union to ask them to work more closely with
rugby league in areas of the country where it is appropriate on
exclusion issues. There is flexibility there, and we must not
cast these things in stone and say, "These ones are in, these
ones are out." we have to adapt and be more flexible.
Chairman: It would be wrong to pursue
this issue further.
Q98 John Austin: I am reluctant to
mention soccer, with the Chairman sitting here. We have talked
about who does this, who gets involved. My local football team
is Charlton Athletic, and Greenwich Council was one of the pioneers
in forging a relationship with the club for sport in the community,
involvement with schools. In fact, when the Broncos had their
short period of time at the ballet, rugby league was doing the
same sort of work in schools. I think what we have in Greenwich
is an example of good practice. I am just wondering to what extent
the Director of Sport in DCMS is involved with premiership clubs,
and the FA and with DfES about all the ways in which the professional
sports—whether it is cricket or football—can actually
become engaged in their local communities in the way that Charlton
Athletic has a partnership with Greenwich.
Mr McGivan: Certainly on the football
front—and I know this is true too in rugby league from my
discussions with Richard Lewis, the chief executive—sport
increasingly sees the need to be more engaged on a community basis.
There are lots of examples of football clubs—Charlton will
be one but I can think of others—where children are brought
into the club to create for them a different atmosphere—of
course, they cannot get there quickly enough in some cases—to
help them with academic work and so on. DfES might want to comment.
I think probably as a Department we are not as close to that as
we should be. I accept the point, but there is a lot of good work
going on there. As you know, there are projects like the Sporting
Champions, where leading sports personalities go into schools
and try and encourage children, and lead by the example of their
own lives and what they have achieved. That is another important
connection between people active in sport and children. You are
absolutely right that using football clubs and other sporting
facilities to engage particularly the young through a medium which
they are happy with, familiar with and enjoy, has huge educational
spin-offs.
Ms Watts: I do not know whether
the particular example you have cited is a Playing for Success
centre, but that is probably the most well-known of the study
support programmes funded from DfES. Something like 88 premiership
clubs and rugby clubs have signed up to that. The results of that
link between a high-level sporting establishment and club and
facility and pupils has been extraordinary—very successful.
The sorts of data that we have had out of that are, with primary
pupils going to use that kind of Playing for Success facility,
their numeracy scores have increased; by something like 17 months'
progression. Secondary pupils have made 24 months' progression
after an intense course working in that environment. So its value
is unquestionable.
Q99 Dr Naysmith: On school sport
and physical activity in schools, I wonder whether there are any
international comparisons of how we do in terms of our European
Union partners and America. Are there any lessons to be learned
from other countries? How do we compare?
Ms Watts: The DCMS/Cabinet Office
Strategy Unit report, Game Plan, had a set of data in it that
compared us, and what it compared was the percentage of the adult
population that participated in some sort of physical activity
more than 12 times a year, and of the seven countries there, we
were in the middle, with Finland, Sweden and the Netherlands doing
more than us and Ireland, Spain and Italy doing less. But beyond
that, there is very little international comparison data that
allows us, again—and I come back to this point about data—to
compare like with like.
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