Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120-139)
12 JUNE 2003
MR MIKE
ASH, MS
DANILA ARMSTRONG,
MS IMOGEN
SHARP, MS
PATRICIA HAYES,
MR ALEC
MCGIVAN
AND MS
MELA WATTS
Q120 Sandra Gidley: Have you had
any discussions on the subject of food labelling?
Ms Sharp: No, we as the Department
of Health have not, because the Food Standards Agency has that
responsibility, so we would not have those discussions.
Q121 Sandra Gidley: You mentioned
the 5 A Day scheme, and it seems to me that all supermarkets are
getting on the bandwagon. I went into one last week and all the
fruit and veg was marked up. More alarmingly—and I am not
sure this is what the Department of Health intended—a tin
of baked beans apparently gives me one helping of fresh fruit
and veg a day. Is this accepted as reality by the Department of
Health? Are you happy that baked beans are labelled as a portion
of fresh fruit?
Ms Sharp: In terms of baked beans,
yes, they do count towards 5 A Day in terms of the nutritional
criteria and judgment. Over the years, nutritionists have said
that, if only eaten once during the day, it can constitute one
portion and that is it. In terms of the specific labelling, you
will be aware there are a number of schemes, and the Department
of Health has developed its own 5 A Day logo. We are currently
developing nutritional criteria with which that can be used. At
the moment it can only be used on fresh or frozen products, or
products without added fat, sugar or salt. We are currently having
a nutritional technical group developing the criteria.
Q122 Sandra Gidley: So baked beans
will be out in future because of the added sugar and salt?
Ms Sharp: I could not say whether
they would be in or out, but there would be a consideration of
the added fat, sugar and salt content to any product.
Q123 Sandra Gidley: One of the other
aspects of food labelling is fat levels. I am only asking for
an opinion here; I realise it is the responsibility of the Food
Standards Agency, but the Department of Health should have an
opinion. Lots of foods these days are labelled as 85% fat-free.
Do you not think that is misleading, and they should be made to
be labelled as containing 15% fat, which is actually quite high?
Ms Sharp: I would not like to
comment on the individual point, because, as I said, it is the
responsibility of the foods Standards Agency on food labelling,
and also negotiations on Europe about health claims and labelling
claims. It is enshrined in law. I know it is a consideration and
concern.
Q124 Sandra Gidley: Surely, the Department
of Health should have a view on whether labelling of foods gives
the right health message, because you are trying to reduce levels
of cancer and heart disease and the rest of it. It is a bit of
a cop-out to say, "Sorry, not me, guv. It's the Food Standards
Agency." How do you feed into the Food Standards Agency?
Ms Sharp: We have regular meetings
with the Food Standards Agency on particular issues. Yes, we do
talk to them on food labelling. I am not copping out of it. I
am just saying it is obviously their remit.
Q125 Sandra Gidley: What did you
tell them? What are your views that you have passed on to the
Food Standards Agency?
Ms Sharp: Overall, our common
view is that labelling should be easy to understand by consumers
in a fair and appropriate way.
Q126 John Austin: Can I follow up
on the fruit issue, the Fruit in Schools campaign. To what extent
has that been taken up? What is the percentage of schools that
participate?
Ms Sharp: It is now reaching half
the 4-6 year olds in England. It has been developed with New Opportunities
Fund moneys region by region across England. The take-up by eligible
schools is 90-95%. It is proving very popular amongst teachers,
parents and children themselves.
Q127 John Austin: A question on the
food manufacturers and retailers. It is perhaps a class issue.
Some of the cheaper food is often some of the least healthy food,
and the more healthy food is often the more expensive food. What
sort of discussions does the Department of Health have with the
food industry about that?
Ms Sharp: Obviously, it is not
for government to tell industry how much they charge for a particular
food. Within the context of the Food and Health Action Plan we
will be looking across the board at supply of food, production
and access to food, and availability, as well as broader consumer
information and education. Certainly within that we will be looking
at health and equality of access to food, which would pick up
some of those issues.
Q128 Dr Taylor: I was stuck on a
deserted railway station last night and I had a chance to study
both vending machines and food labelling. I bet when you last
bought a Kit-Kat you did not look at the actual labelling. The
logo includes the words "Good food, good life." The
information on it—and you have to really twist the wrapper
back and look at tiny print—is that each Kit-Kat gives something
like 250 calories. I know it is probably not your responsibility,
but it would be so good to make food labelling on these things
standard, and much larger. Another comment: Galaxy, made by a
different firm, does not tell you how many calories, but it tells
you about milk solids, which I am sure nobody understands, in
about ten different languages. Food labelling should be made much
clearer, much larger and much easier to understand. Is there a
move in that direction?
Ms Sharp: What you have picked
up there is the ingredient listing and the food labelling issue
and, as I said, our position is to work towards the position where
food labelling is easy and understandable by consumers. In terms
of raising awareness of the issue, we have recently been working
with the Food Standards Agency and the food industry on the issue
of the salt content of foods because of its links with later disease.
We have a commitment to work not just on salt but also on fat
and sugar, but we took salt as the starter because the Chief Medical
Officer had particularly endorsed the target and wanted us to
work towards that. Obviously, in looking at that, we are raising
awareness of the salt content of foods and working with the industry
in terms of reduced content. We will be doing similar sort of
work on fat and sugar as well, which I think will pick up some
of those concerns, in working with the industry.
Q129 Dr Taylor: There is an in-built
paradox, is there not, because it is bad for a firm to advertise
that each Kit-Kat has a vast number of calories in, so it is terribly
difficult to get round? Turning to vending machines, we meet vending
machines in swimming baths and all sorts of places where often
they are the only food. Does the Department of Health and the
Department for Education have a view on vending machines in primary
schools, secondary schools, nurseries?
Ms Watts: From the Department
of Education's point of view, it is a matter for schools to decide
on the nature of the vending machines, whether they have them
or do not have them, and what they might want to have in those
vending machines, if there are choices.
Q130 Dr Taylor: But should the Department
of Health have a recommendation towards that? You can only get
unhealthy foods out of vending machines, can you not? Is that
fair?
Ms Sharp: I do not think that
is completely fair, but with the Department for Education and
Skills we have the Food in Schools programme which has eight different
strands, one of which is vending machines and looking specifically
at options around healthier vending machines within schools. I
understand the Food Standards Agency is doing some work on this.
Q131 Dr Taylor: So you are working
with the Department for Education on that.
Ms Sharp: Absolutely. We have
a joint programme on Food in Schools which covers school meals,
breakfast clubs and vending machines.
Ms Watts: It will continue to
be for schools to decide whether they have vending machines or
not.
Q132 Dr Taylor: But you will advise
them on appropriate content of vending machines?
Ms Watts: As Imogen said, we are
working together to think about the most appropriate use of vending
machines, but the final decision will continue to rest with governing
bodies.
Q133 Sandra Gidley: Dr Taylor just
mentioned Food in Schools and vending machines. I recently went
along to a school meals week, and I was horrified by the menu,
which were things like chicken nuggets, lots of high-fat food,
burgers, and chips were on the menu most days. There was only
one helping of vegetables available. You have an ideal opportunity
to get children eating more healthily and it seems to be being
wasted. What is being done to address this?
Ms Watts: I would be very interested
to know which particular school you were in, because there were
some nutritional guidelines introduced in 2000 which are very
clear about what school meals should consist of. There are four
categories of food set out. First, starchy foods; second, fruit
and veg; third, milk and dairy products; and fourth, meat, fish,
etcetera, ie non-dairy proteins. The nutritional guidelines set
out very clearly that two items from each of those four categories
should be available every day and throughout the lunch period.
So if there are particular instances where that is not happening,
and that is not the offer that is being made to children, it would
be very interesting to know about that.
Ms Sharp: Could I add that I know
the Food Standards Agency again is undertaking some research on
school meals as well. Can I come back on the food labelling issue,
having considered it? The FSA—and I am sure you may be considering
whether to take evidence from them as well—has a Food Labelling
Action Plan and is actively working in Europe to get more meaningful
legislation, particularly on health and nutrition claims.
Q134 Sandra Gidley: Mr McGivan, I
am not sure it is entirely fair to ask you this question, as your
remit is sport, but we only have one person from each Department.
There has been a lot of media attention to the subject of advertising
sugary, high-salt foods during children's television programmes.
What is the Department's line on this?
Mr McGivan: I will do my best
to answer that. We are obviously aware of the issue. The Department's
current view and the Secretary of State's view is that there is
not a case in her mind at the moment for a ban on advertising
of food products during children's programmes and so on. The ITC,
as you know, has the power to deal with advertising it considers
to be harmful to children. Under its regulations it can deal with
advertising that misleads, makes unsubstantiated health claims,
encourages excessive consumption or disparages good dietary practice.
I think the Department's view at the moment is that the power
rests with the ITC to deal with those issues if necessary. I understand
that the number of complaints that the ITC received out of 8,000
complaints regarding advertising were 12 concerning what was described
as "junk food." I am also advised by colleagues in the
Department that, as you probably know, there is a Food Standards
Agency report due out, a review on the current evidence of the
effects of food promotion on children. I believe that is out later
this year, in the summer. The Department's view therefore is to
wait and see what that report says, and also what this Select
Committee says on this issue. The Secretary of State did recently
have a meeting with Debra Shipley on some of these issues as well,
and I think has said that the FSA report will be something that
she will be looking at very carefully.
Q135 Sandra Gidley: So it is not
a case of never say never.
Mr McGivan: No, it is not a question
of closed minds. That is the Department's view at the moment.
Q136 Sandra Gidley: Very often the
characters from children's TV programmes have become popular,
such as Bob the Builder, and you can buy Bob the Builder chocolate
bars, this that and the other. Is that honest?
Mr McGivan: Under the regulations
as they stand, that is a matter for the ITC to rule on, and it
would be expected to do so. I would hesitate to give you a direct
answer as to whether it is honest or not. Those issues are meant
to be covered by the ITC regulations[3].
Q137 Dr Naysmith: I want to ask Mr
Ash one or two questions. What role does he think that planning
has, and your Department has, in terms of setting criteria for
local authorities, who make the decisions in the end, to promote
things like healthy physical activity: cycle routes, walking routes
and that sort of thing, particularly with inner city development,
possibly new towns along the Thames, that sort of thing?
Q138 Dr Naysmith: If there is pressure
to make sure that children can walk or cycle to school, for instance,
is that contained in the guidance?
Mr Ash: Exactly. That is part
of the guidance on transport, and in particular, you mentioned
the plans currently around for major new developments in places
like Thames Gateway and other locations. We have a guidance note
on housing developments called PPG3, which says that local planning
authorities should have clear policies for the protection and
creation of open space and playing fields. New housing developments
should incorporate sufficient provision where such spaces are
not already adequately provided within easy access of new housing.
It should not be viewed in isolation. There should be consideration
of design and lay-out. It must be informed by the wider context,
local patterns of streets and spaces, building traditions, etc,
to help to determine the character and identity of the development.
"As part of that, local authorities should adopt policies
which promote designs and lay-outs which are safe, take account
of public health, crime prevention and community safety considerations."
There is a whole raft of policy which is being translated into
plans that are produced at the local level. Those plans, of course,
go through a process of public inquiry where people, including
organisations such as Sport England, can raise issues if local
authorities in a particular area are not delivering what is required,
and of course the Secretary of State does have his own reserve
powers in respect of intervention in plans and in terms of deciding
cases called in or appeals made to him. There is enforcement,
therefore, which seeks to ensure that those policies are delivered.
Can I just mention one thing? We are in the midst of a fairly
major shake-up of the planning system. We have a Planning and
Compulsory Purchase Bill currently before Parliament. It does
make changes to the way the planning system operates in terms
of plan-making, for example, and one of the key things in that
part of it is that local authorities will be required to produce
annual monitoring reports in future, not just of the progress
they are making in putting plans in place but also of the progress
they are making in implementing the policies that they have got
in place, so we will have a clearer view of whether these things
are being delivered on the ground.
Q139 Dr Naysmith: I was going to
ask you about that. Is it being monitored and have you any view
of how successful it will be? You have probably just answered
that.
Mr Ash: I think it will be better
in the future. The position now in respect of all our policies
and in accordance with general government policy is that we do
evaluate those policies, we do try to monitor and we do try to
carry out research which looks at whether the policies are being
delivered, and that is an ongoing programme that we have. I am
not aware of one which looks specifically at the issues you have
mentioned, I am afraid.
3 See p. Ev 45. Mr Ash: We clearly do
have a role in doing that. Just as background for members of the
Committee, I know certain members will be well aware of the way
the planning system operates, but the Department produces national
policy guidance, which flows down into regional policy guidance
and to local authority development plans. Local authorities are
responsible for preparing development plans for their area, and
they are responsible for taking decisions on planning applications,
which have to be in accordance with their development plan. Those
development plans have to have regard to the national policy set
out by the ODPM. We have a system which cascades this policy down.
As I said in response to an earlier question, there are elements
of this which surface in various policy guidance notes in the
planning policy guidance notes series, certainly in the one on
housing, the one on transport, and the one on open space for sport
and recreation, which is critical. To mention the last one, which
is known as PPG17, it says in its objectives: "Open space,
sport and recreation all underpin people's quality of life. Well
designed and implemented planning policies for open space, sport
and recreation are therefore fundamental to delivering broader
Government objectives. These include health and well-being. Open
space and sport and recreational facilities have a vital role
to play in promoting healthy living and in preventing illness,
and in the social development of children of all ages through
play, sporting activities and interaction with others." Then
there is "Promoting more sustainable patterns of development",
"ensuring that open space and recreational facilities are
easily accessible by walking and cycling," etc, etc. That
particular document goes on, as I said earlier, to make recommendations
to local authorities as to how they assess need, how they carry
out audits of existing facilities, how they protect playing fields
in the way I referred to earlier and how that translates itself
through into plans. In many cases, the national policy statements
are underpinned by good practice guidance. There is one particularly
on assessing needs and opportunities for sport and recreation
and how this is then taken forward by local authorities. It is
a useful document to draw to the Committee's attention because
it does include a number of case studies and good practice, where
local authorities have through the planning system provided new
facilities, have used things like section 106 planning gain agreements
with developers to deliver through the planning system improvements
to sport and recreation facilities. So there is a whole range
of ways in which the planning system can do this. I will not go
into transport and the guidance there is on walking and cycling,
for example. Back
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