Examination of Witnesses (Questions 860-879)
THURSDAY 27 NOVEMBER
MR ANDREW
COSSLETT, MR
JULIAN HILTON-JOHNSON,
MR MARTIN
GLENN AND
MR TIM
MOBSBY
Q860 John Austin: Does that suggest the
code is not strong enough?
Mr Glenn: There are two things
at issue here, in the internal brief it was never our suggestion
or intention to breach the code that was just a sloppy use of
language. We apologised once and we apologise again if it helps.
The advert was approved by the ITC, as all of our adverts are,
and we did not get any letters of complaint.
Q861 John Austin: Would all of you accept
that some of your marketing and some of your advertising is specifically
aimed at children?
Mr Mobsby: Yes.
Q862 Mr Burns: I just wanted to ask Mr
Glenn on pestering, is it not a fact in the real world that children
pester their parents on everything, whatever they want they pester
their parents? Is that not the reality of the situation and it
applies as much to soft drinks and to fast food as it does to
sweets, as it does to the latest toy or it does to the latest
fade in the school playground?
Mr Glenn: I think it is part of
being a parent. Mr Cosslett put it over very well, it is part
of life. It is also not correct in advertising to encourage constant
pestering, defined as irritating demands for the product, and
that is what we do not do and did not do in our advert.
Q863 Mr Burns: I understand the code.
You can have as many codes as you like or as many pieces of paper
but is it not a fact of life that children rather annoyingly pester
their parents constantly if they want something?
Mr Glenn: Children are the best
negotiators in life and we are conditioned as we get older not
to be as good.
Q864 John Austin: What would your reaction
be to a recommendation or a suggestion that there should either
be a ban or limitation on advertising during children's viewing
time on television, or if there was a code similar to that which
I think exists in the Netherlands which does not allow children's
television personalities to be associated with products that may
be advertised for children? What would your reaction be to those
proposals?
Mr Mobsby: I can start with that
one, we at Kellogg's would have a serious problem with the suggestion
that advertising for children are banned. There are three reasons
for that, one is, I think if we are honest it would be probably
be impractical and ineffective. What we do know is that children
watch a lot of other media and are exposed to a lot of stimulants
rather than television advertising during children's television
hours. I do not think there is any real evidence that it would
have any impact. If we look at Quebec and Sweden where advertising
bans are in effect the incidents and the rate of obesity in children
is just as high as it is else where. A second consideration, and
quite honestly this one relates to commercial business, if we
were to ban advertising to children on breakfast cereals, which
is what the effect of that would be, we would have to think through
what the consequences might be. What will children do instead,
will they stop eating breakfast, which is quite possible, or reduce
their consumption of breakfast, make it less frequent? Will they
shift to other types of breakfast which might have higher levels
of fat and low levels of other micro nutrients? I am seriously
concerned if there were a ban on advertising for children as far
as it pertains to our products, and I can only speak to our own
product. The third point, advertising can be used as a force for
good and I would encourage us to think about it in those terms.
We talk about the education and the importance of getting a message
across, we can start with children, obviously it also involves
mothers, I would be far more interested in trying to engage in
a discussion about how we get positive messages into our communications
directed at children.[23]
Q865 Mr Bradley: Can I come in on that
and go back to the point about pester power. There was recently
an advert for Kellogg's in Manchester, my area, for a senior consumer
researcher for kids' brands. If I can read the first paragraph
of the advert,—"Coco-Pops, Fruit Winders, Cereal Milk
Bars and Frosties are some of the brands you need to get under
your skin in this role. You will spend your time understanding
kids, finding out what interests them and establishing which other
brands they associate with and appreciating the realms of pester
power". Do you think that is a reasonable way to promote
a job in this area?
Mr Mobsby: I do not. I think it
is unfortunate that the phrase "pester power" has got
into common parlance, I do not think it is helpful. I do not think
it is appropriately used in that context. One of the most frequently
asked questions when a mother goes shopping and the kids do not
go is,—"what cereal do you want me to buy?" In
relation to that we have no evidence pester power is a major issue.
Mothers are actually more interested in knowing
that the kids will actually eat the products they are going to
buy, that is the bigger concern. I think that use of language
is unfortunate, it should not be used in our companies.
Q866 Dr Naysmith: You were talking about
the effects of banning advertising and you said that where it
had happened there was no evidence that it had any effect.
Mr Mobsby: Yes.
Q867 Dr Naysmith: Then you went on to
say that you had worries about what might happen if advertising
was banned and kids might not eat breakfast. I do not see how
these two things can be reconciled, particularly the first one.
If it has no effect why is the industry spending millions of pounds?
Mr Mobsby: What is not having
an effect? I do not understand your particular point.
Q868 Dr Naysmith: The advertising of
your products on television at children's viewing time.
Mr Mobsby: I do not think I have
said that advertising our products does not have any effects.
Q869 Dr Naysmith: What you said was it
had no effect in those countries it has been banned.
Mr Mobsby: I said there had been
no effect on the incidence of obesity. I am sorry if I was not
clear on that point. If you look at the rising incidence of obesity,
it is as high in Quebec, Canada, as it is in the rest of the Canada
and it is a similar situation in Sweden.
Q870 Dr Naysmith: If withdrawing the
advertising has no effect on obesity, why does it have an effect
in terms of promoting eating breakfast?
Mr Mobsby: We do not know is the
honest answer what the effect will be. We have not got examples
that clearly demonstrate that. We tried to answer the question
in Canada to illustrate what was going on but the information
was confusing and we cannot see what actually happened, so we
do not know.
Q871 Dr Naysmith: We need to let it run
for a bit longer until we can assess it.
Mr Mobsby: Canada, Quebec, has
been there for about 20 years and we are all able to read it but
the information is confusing. I think what I am flagging is we
need to understand what the knock-on consequences will be. When
I talk about that in relation to the cereal category, which is
the one that I can understand, so I know why we advertise to kids,
I think we have a reasonable understanding of what it does. If
we were not to have that capability I think there is a probability
over time that the consumption of cereals would actually drop,
the consumption of breakfast might well drop. We need to understand
that because that is not necessarily a positive step forward;
in fact, quite the reverse I would suggest.
Q872 Chairman: Can I just raise one point
about the issue of sports sponsorship that has been referred to.
McDonald's are very heavily involved with football and Mr Glenn's
company as well has links. I had the company of Bertie Bassett
on Saturday evening at a rugby international, 13 aside, proper
rugby. What I am interested in is these are the kinds of sports
that do involve a significant number of people, not the majority
of people. What about the involvement of your organisations in
the sponsorship or encouragement, I should say, of things like
walking and cycling which perhaps most people would gain more
from than the more active sports that you are associated with?
Mr Cosslett: This is something
that our business has been trying to do recently. I could take
you right back but we probably do not have the time. We have had
a long history. One of the things that we did as part of our Get
Active campaign, which unfortunately was not publicised, was the
event days that we held for thousands of kids and their parents
to come along and try new things. We had one at the NEC in Birmingham
when 134,500 people turned up, 6,000 of them children. We got
a lot of different activities to come along and let the children
try out different sports. It was not just sports, we had dance
classes, we had the Rambler's Association there, a wide range.
Lots of people do not like sports, cannot do sports, but the general
issue of activity is crucial. Therefore, we tried to do that within
the Get Active programme but, unfortunately, as I say, we did
not get the publicity we would have liked. We did it again in
Wrexham in Wales two weeks later, we had another great turnout.
It was a really good example of how you can actually mobilise
children and their parents to get excited about activity. That
was their first brush with it. I heard yesterday—this was
new information to me—one lad who turned up and tried the
rowing was considered by the coach there, who was running the
day, to be Olympic standard. That was just a lad who turned up,
which is tremendous. We do actually get some very, very positive—
Q873 Chairman: So you have tried to do
something along those lines.
Mr Cosslett: That was one example.
Going forward, one of the ways we might take our activity programme
on next year is to actually look at giving people the opportunity
to win prizes which will get them into these clubs and associations
which will get them directly into sports and exercise of all types.
We will build on that, that is one of our ideas.
Mr Glenn: Could I add something
to that?
Q874 Chairman: Yes, of course you can.
Mr Glenn: Two things. We are aware
of those issues. We are not going to get sustained tackling of
the obesity issue by sports stunts either. I think you probably
saw Dr James Hill with America on the Move. That is basically
lots of small steps, literally and metaphorically.
Q875 Chairman: We were very impressed
by what we saw.
Mr Glenn: I was on the phone to
him last week. He is very keen to see how it would work in Europe
and he is going to come over and talk to us. That would be one
of the initiatives—Mr Burstow has gone now—which the
larger food and drink companies might co-operate on. I think the
importance of that one is that can form part of your lifestyle.
I think getting someone to play sports suddenly after years probably
is not healthy, let alone practical, where do you go, etc?
Q876 Chairman: There is a possible danger,
the departure to play sport would be unusual.
Mr Glenn: We looked at cycling
because there has been quite a lot of work being done, would it
not be good to get kids cycling again, but I would not touch it
with a bargepole. I do not let my kids go out on the roads and
cycle, I think the roads are too dangerous. As commercial businesses
we cannot afford to put ourselves in harm's way either. Yes, the
America on the Move thing, small changes to one's lifestyle that
are sustainable, is the solution to obesity.
Q877 Chairman: So you are actively looking
at the America on the Move model?
Mr Glenn: PepsiCo is the headline
sponsor of America on the Move in the US, so through that link
we have spoken to the people concerned. There is an academic at
the University of Glasgow who has got a particular interest in
this field who is keen to get sponsorship for doing some form
of assessment study, although I am not sure you need one by the
way. That kind of issue is great. It is what we are good at, we
touch lots of people and it goes with the grain of how people
live their lives rather than saying you have got to have a revolution
in your lives, which will never work.
Mr Mobsby: If I could add to that
as well, if I may. I absolutely agree with you, it may be that
the jump to competitive sport is too big an ask. You have got
to bring it down to a level that is more accessible. We have got
some work going with the Amateur Swimming Association involving
kids, which is basically trying to get them swimming in the first
place and then they can progress beyond that. We are also interested
very much in walking and the Colorado on the Move and America
on the Move initiatives are things that we have been associated
with in the US. Without giving competitive secrets away, I hope
we might soon have pedometers here in the UK courtesy of Kellogg's.
Q878 Chairman: We are all wearing them
round the table.
Mr Mobsby: We have also commissioned,
and we would be happy to share the results of this when we have
got it, some research through Loughborough University on walking
specifically to try and understand that particular phenomenon
and how people relate to it, etc. That is something that we would
be more than willing to share.
Mr Hilton-Johnson: We are very
proud of our community football programme. It is very big and
it has won the backing of the Sports Minister. Football is very
big in the UK, it is the fastest growing female sport, I understand.
Obviously, as a company we need to concentrate our resources in
one area and make sure that we do that well rather than try and
spread ourselves too widely and too thinly. We are about to start
talking to our employees about a healthy, active lifestyle. We
are, in fact, organising a big three peaks challenge next year
in Yorkshire and we too may have some pedometers on offer next
year. I think the Chairman is absolutely right, the broader that
we can spread a healthy, active lifestyle message the better.
I think what may be underlying your question, if you will forgive
me, is can companies play a role in communicating key government
messages here, and the answer to that has to be yes.
Q879 Dr Taylor: I think we are all delighted
to hear these rumours about step counters because we are completely
wedded to them and it would seem so much more sensible to put
those into a packet of Kellogg's than some of the promotional
toys that you do. Going back to McDonald's, with promotional toys
can you see the effect of a particular series of toys on the market;
is it obvious which are working?
Mr Hilton-Johnson: When we sell
Happy Meals there are clearly some food and drink products that
sell better than others and there are some toys that sell better
than others.
23 Note by witness: Studies show body mass index
of children and adults who consume breakfast cereals (including
pre-sweetened ones) to be lower than those of people who skip
breakfast or eat other breakfast foods. If banning advertising
lead to reduced consumption of breakfast cereals (presumably the
intention or why ban it? The effect might well be to increase
obesity. Back
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