Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1240-1259)
15 JANUARY 2004
MR CALLTON
YOUNG, MR
ANDREW WADGE,
MR TOM
MURRAY AND
MS ROSEMARY
HIGNETT
Q1240 Dr Taylor: Following up the same
thing, because it has hit us time and time again in this inquiry
how many organisations and departments are involved. You say structurally
there is going to be a framework for formal meetings and talking
between the various departments. Have I got that right?
Mr Young: I think that framework
already exists. The framework exists and is working to help pull
together the Food and Health Action Plan. I was saying the Plan
itself would form a broader structure for action within government
and for industry.
Q1241 Dr Taylor: How often, for example,
do Defra meet with the FSA?
Mr Young: I am sure I am in contact
with the FSA on a weekly basis.
Q1242 Dr Taylor: And with other departments:
the Department of Transport, DCMS for example?
Mr Young: Very, very regularly.
Q1243 Dr Taylor: Very regularly. All
of them?
Mr Young: Yes.
Q1244 Dr Taylor: What about the food
industry? Do you have regular channels with representatives of
that, and who do you actually talk to?
Mr Wadge: Well, our chief executive
has established a consultative group that meets twice a year with
a range of the key food industry stakeholders, so that operates
on that chief executive level. Our Chairman meets with key people
from the trade associations and from the food industry, but again,
at official level, if we are conducting a survey of food composition
and we are about to publish, then we will be in touch at official
and working level with various members of the food industry.
Q1245 Dr Taylor: The Guardian yesterday
produced a picture of Anthony Worrell-Thompson, with whom I gather
you are working at the moment, and it draws attention to the FSA
debate—
Mr Wadge: Yes.
Q1246 Dr Taylor: "Defusing the Diet
Time-Bomb" to take place on 27 January. It is marvellous
to hear that you recognise that it is a time-bomb and that it
is as dangerous as this. Who are you involving in that debate?
Mr Wadge: Well, it is a range
of key stakeholders . I do not know whether, Rosemary, you want
to come in?
Ms Hignett: Yes, I could do. It
is important to say, firstly, that this is just one of a set of
discussions that we are having with stakeholders and interested
parties generally about this issue for the public debate itself,
we have invited a very wide range of organisations, including
consumer representatives, including public health groups, including
industry representatives, enforcement representatives, and we
have put out an open invitation to members of the public also—a
large audience is expected—to cover that whole range of
interest.
Q1247 Dr Taylor: I do not know whether
we have already got details of this, but it would be useful to
have details of it, and possibly a report afterwards would probably
be very helpful.
Ms Hignett: I am happy to do that.
Q1248 Dr Taylor: Moving on, going back
to resources. You mentioned your resources. In the information
we have got current year spending on the nutrition action plan
was about eight million, I think. What is the total budget for
the FSA?
Mr Wadge: The total budget is
about 130 million. I can check that for you afterwards.
Q1249 Dr Taylor: So you do have a vast
amount of money?
Mr Wadge: In terms of research
we spend £25 million on research and surveys of which the
nutrition component of about six million is clearly a significant
chunk.
Q1250 Jim Dowd: Can I move on from the
point Richard was making about the contact that you have with
the food industry. I am not sure if this is categorised as a food—I
am sure the Chair and others believe it is—but do you have
contact with the brewers and the alcohol industry, for example,
because they do have a role to play, or they have already played
a role, in promoting obesity amongst the nation?
Mr Wadge: Yes, we do.
Q1251 Dr Taylor: So the alcohol industry
you regard as part of the food industry?
Mr Wadge: Yes.
Q1252 Chairman: It is interesting that
Jim makes that point: because I think one of the things that we
found rather worrying is that the role of alcohol in this whole
area does not feature largely in the evidence that we have had
as a committee. Does that surprise yourselves? Is that something
that, you know, comes as news to you that it is not a major player
in this debate apparently?
Mr Murray: Yes, I can say in answer
to the question from Dr Taylor that I certainly meet with the
industry on a weekly basis, all sections of the industry. In terms
of the alcohol industry, if we can call it that, the catering
trades have a major part to play on the issue of obesity, and
part of the catering trade is of course the pub type situation.
I have close links with the British Hospitality Association and
the Beer and Pub Association, and in a short period of time, for
example, we will be issuing a salt awareness leaflet to something
like 40,000 members of the British Hospitality Association to
raise awareness and get them in on the issue. So the lines of
communication are there and are operating.
Q1253 John Austin: You say on your website
that there is no such thing as good and bad food, only good or
bad diets, and in that you are singing from the same hymn sheet
perhaps as Walkers, Coca Cola and Kellogg's. But in evidence last
week one of our witnesses, Mike Waylen, cautioned against that
approach and suggested that was not the road to go down. On your
website you refer to healthy and less healthy foods. Perhaps you
would like to explain to us what that means and what your approach
is?
Mr Wadge: I think we are also
singing along with the World Health Organisation in terms of the
important message that it is the balance of the diet that is important.
I do not think there is any real dispute that what people need
is a healthy, balanced diet that consists of lots of carbohydrates,
fruit, vegetables, moderate amounts of meat, fish and meat substitutes
and small amount of fats and sugars. So in relation to, if you
like, healthier and less healthy food, clearly those foods such
as the fruits and vegetables, where we have encouraged people
to consume at least five portions a week—
Q1254 Chairman: A day?
Mr Wadge: A day.
Jim Dowd: I knew they would find something.
Chairman: It is the 30 units a day we
are worried about.
Q1255 Jim Dowd: I am in credit on that
one.
Mr Wadge: Clearly those are the
types of foods that people can eat regularly. They are the healthier
types of foods; and the high fat, high sugar, high salt foods
are those that, if you like, are less healthy, in the sense that
you cannot eat lots and lots of those and still have a healthy
balanced diet.
Q1256 John Austin: I believe at one stage
one of the manufacturers was arguing that a can of baked beans
was equivalent to a portion of fruit. What would you say to that?
Mr Wadge: Yes, I think it is an
interesting debate. I think that that really flags up the difficulty
of trying to label healthy and less healthy foods, and this is
something that I am sure you will move onto in terms of appropriate
labelling and providing information that is useful to consumers.
We are trying to flag up the healthier food so that people can
eat more of those. What we do not want to do is say, on the one
hand, yes, this is a food that is perhaps low in fat when actually
it is very high in salt. So I think that once you start down the
road of trying to produce logos or signposts towards the healthier
or the less healthier food, you then need to spend quite a lot
of time teasing out what that means in practical terms, otherwise
you can end up with some possibly contradictory messages.
John Austin: I think that takes us to
labelling.
Q1257 Jim Dowd: If I heard correctly
earlier, 30 in your division, Mrs Hignett, is that right?
Ms Hignett: Yes, it is about 35
actually.
Q1258 Jim Dowd: So you have obviously
done a lot of work in this area. Do you think there is a need
for regulation in nutrition labelling, or does the current somewhat
less formal arrangement work?
Ms Hignett: We do have legislation
on nutrition labelling. If we are talking here about that panel
of information that appears on the back of most packs of food
in the UK which tells you how much energy, etcetera, there is
in that product, so if we are talking about that nutritional information,
we have legislation at the moment which says that that information
has to be given if a nutrition claim is made. So if you claim
that a food is low-fat, then the legislation says you must give
nutrition information, and the nutrition information—. It
allows for giving either four nutrients or eight nutrients. So
we have that legislation, and what we have in the UK is actually
a situation where manufacturers voluntarily give that information
in one of those two formats on most food that you see in the supermarkets,
so probably about 80% of food does have that information on it.
That is legislation which originates from the EU. It is legislation
which is currently under review and where we expect to see a proposal
for new legislation later this year. To answer your question directly,
the agency does believe that there needs to be legislation in
this area, that it needs to be reviewed and that there are a number
of important changes that need to be made to that legislation.
Q1259 Jim Dowd: There are two things
there. One is what is your view of what you feel the EU will be
bringing forward? The second is, there is never any shortage of
agreement across whole area of public policy that something needs
to be done: is there any consensus in this case around what that
should be?
Ms Hignett: There is certainly
a fair degree of consensus. The position with the European legislation
at the moment is that in December last year the Commission published
its latest discussion paper on the topic, which is an indication
of where it is going. The headlines of that discussion paper were
that it is thinking of making the provision of nutrition information
compulsory on all foods, which we very much welcome because that
is something we have been calling for—on all pre-packed
foods, that is—that it is thinking in terms of requiring
six of those eight nutrients and that it is thinking in terms
of requiring salt information rather than sodium information.
So all three of those key headline messages are ones that we would
welcome as an agency.
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