Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1200-1219)
15 JANUARY 2004
MR CALLTON
YOUNG, MR
ANDREW WADGE,
MR TOM
MURRAY AND
MS ROSEMARY
HIGNETT
Q1200 John Austin: Should you not be
the voice of Government in the industry?
Mr Young: Wait for the second
side. We are the voice of industry within Government to make sure
that industry's voice is heard within the development of Government
policy. Equally, as sponsors of the industry, we reflect agreed
Government policy and we encourage it to comply and play a full
role. In relation to obesity, whatever comes out of the Food and
Health Action Plan—and I know you have had evidence on that—that
will be a framework on which to take forward a whole raft of issues
on nutrition and health. Defra, as sponsors, will be working with
the industry, encouraging them to meet those Government policy
objectives.
Q1201 John Austin: I have no idea what
responsibility you may have for what goes on Defra's website.
There is a mention of health and safety on the Defra website but
nowhere does it list the goal of promoting nutrition in its work
with the food industry. Is that part of Defra's role and, if it
is, why does it not advertise the fact?
Mr Young: The role of promoting
nutrition and the lead on that really resides with the Department
of Health and work of the FSA. Now Defra has a broader responsibility
and that feeds into our third objective which is about promoting
a sustainable food and farming chain. Sustainability will bring
in the aspects of nutrition and health. In fact the nutrition
and health plan is one of the strands of the Strategy for Sustainable
Farming of food. Defra is involved with this at the very core
but the lead policy responsibilities for nutrition and health
reside with the Department of Health and we work with the Department
of Health in order to deliver that.
Q1202 John Austin: To what extent do
you work with the Department of Health and how frequently do you
meet them?
Mr Young: Very closely. I sit
on the steering group for the development of the Food and Health
Action Plan as, indeed, do some of my colleagues alongside me.
We work closely with them, the Department for Education and Skills,
as we work closely with DCMS and other players around Whitehall
because, as I say, there has to be a holistic solution to what
is a very complex and broad problem.
Q1203 Chairman: Can I just clarify, Mr
Young, what you were told you were going to be asked questions
about here this morning. I was a little surprised when you were
shaking your head when I mentioned CAP. As you probably know we
had some little difficulty with your Department in getting somebody
to come along and I had discussions with the Secretary of State
and certainly made it clear to her this week that CAP was an issue
that we would raise with her. What did you understand would be
the areas of questioning by the Committee?
Mr Young: Defra's role, ie sponsorship
role in relation to obesity.
Q1204 Chairman: Right. So CAP was not
mentioned to you at all?
Mr Young: Unfortunately, no. I
was out of the office yesterday, I must explain.
Q1205 Chairman: Had CAP been mentioned
as the key area of investigation in respect of your Department's
responsibility would somebody else have come along instead of
you?
Mr Young: Indeed.
Q1206 Chairman: Okay. Right, well, I
do not want to push you on issues that you do not have responsibility
for but it just concerned me a little bit that I think the message
was loud and clear from me to the Secretary of State. She understood
and I am sorry that you have been landed with answering for an
area that you do not have responsibility for. Nevertheless, can
I ask you, you mentioned the steering group that you serve on
and I am interested in the relationship between your Department
and the Department of Health and other Government departments
in respect of this whole area. Has the CAP issue been discussed
at all at that steering group and, if so, in what context and
what have been the consequences of discussing the issue as it
relates to the obesity question?
Mr Young: The CAP has cropped
up in the work that has been taken forward by the group. As I
say, it is clearly one of the strands which needs to feed in to
it. In terms of what can be done in relation to CAP that is a
much more difficult nut to crack. We have been pursuing a programme
of CAP reform for a long time now and this will be a new dimension
which we will need to develop. I am sure that this will be an
aspect which will come out of the work that officials are doing
currently on the Food and Health Action Plan and which will be
put before Ministers.
Q1207 Chairman: Would it be appropriate
to ask if you could possibly get back to your colleagues who have
responsibility in this area—obviously I will speak to the
Secretary of State about why you have been put in this position
today—in order that we can have some information from your
Department in more detail about the position of CAP and the discussions
which have gone on with regard to the obesity question?
Mr Young: I am quite happy to
do that.
Q1208 Chairman: Okay.
Mr Young: I would not want to
imply any criticism of the Secretary of State in this. I am sure
it has just got lost in the translation.
Q1209 Chairman: I am not criticising
the Secretary of State. She has been very helpful in that she
was very concerned that we had not had a response from the Department
and when she found out she did something about it. Unfortunately,
I think you have got the short straw and you are perhaps the wrong
person to be here. We are grateful to see you but if you could
come back to us with that information we would be very grateful.
Can I move on to the other witnesses. Obviously, Mr Young, if
you want to come in on some of these questions we will be happy
to bring you in again.
Mr Young: Right.
Q1210 Chairman: I am not sure who will
answer this from the FSA but I think as a Committee we are particularly
interested in the background to the work of the Agency and the
focus of the Agency being on perhaps such things as food poisoning
rather than healthy eating and the obesity question. I know there
has been a lot of debate around the whole focus of your Agency.
Do you feel that the central drivers in the Agency are going in
the right direction or do you feel perhaps that subsequent experience
since the Agency has been functioning leads us to look at whether
more emphasis ought to be placed on other aspects or whether your
powers and role ought to be re-examined at Government level?
Mr Wadge: If I can answer, Chairman,
thank you very much. It is clear that one of the major drivers
in establishing the Food Standards Agency at the outset was a
series of food safety concerns throughout the 1990s culminating,
of course, with the terrible BSE crisis. Having said that, whilst
food safety and improved enforcement were very much two of the
important pillars at the outset of the Agency's work, right from
the beginning the Agency established a Nutrition Action Plan which
placed the importance of promoting a healthy, balanced diet right
at the forefront of the Agency's work because we recognised the
importance of this in terms of promoting and improving public
health.
Q1211 Chairman: Sir John Krebs has recently
talked at some length about the issue of obesity and I think he
has pointed to the very worrying trends we are all aware of. One
concern put to us is that no-one looking at your newsletter or
website would think that that area was a major priority in the
work that you do. How would you respond to that point?
Mr Wadge: I would be a little
bit surprised by that if that was how they felt but I would think,
also, if that is how they feel we need to do better because the
Agency really does two things. One is it gathers evidence on the
importance of healthy diets and then it carries out and is piloting
interventions to see what ways we can improve and promote healthier
diets. Certainly the website has quite an interactive section
in it in terms of what constitutes a healthy balanced diet, how
people might maintain a healthy weight. For example, you can calculate
your body mass index. There is information about diets for different
life stages. We do not just operate through the website, we participate
in regional and national newspaper columns where I think we reach
about two million readers overall giving practical guidance to
people on their diets. Whilst I would accept that is an assertion
that some people would make my response would be in that case
we need to do better but certainly it does not mean we are not
taking it seriously.
Q1212 Chairman: One of the things that
we have noticed is—and this sometimes happens with inquiries—since
we announced our intention last year to look at this area there
has been politically a great deal more interest in the whole question
of obesity. You have got national newspapers running campaigns.
I am very conscious, having been in Parliament around the debate
on food safety and BSE and all the various food scares we have
had at the background to your Agency being established, but I
can see the way in which the public concern about food has moved
in a very different direction in recent times. What I am trying
to say, probably my first question was not put very well, is your
Agency in a position to adjust to the change in public concerns
within your area of responsibility?
Mr Wadge: Absolutely.
Q1213 Chairman: You think it is?
Mr Wadge: Absolutely is the answer
to that.
Q1214 Chairman: Your current structure
is in a position to address these new concerns? You do not feel
there is a need to revisit how you were established or the way
you were set up?
Mr Wadge: Our board are currently,
as we speak, discussing the strategy for the years 2005 to 2010
and quite clearly the board members are alert to the developments
taking place since their establishment almost four years ago.
As I say, nutrition was there at the outset with a clear Nutrition
Action Plan but the information and the public debate has been
on obesity clearly means that this is something that as a food
agency we need to make an increasing impact on.
Q1215 Chairman: You have said you feel
you probably could do more on obesity and accepted that there
might be some criticism. Can you tell me how many people you have
got working directly in this area? What structures do you have
and how are you organised in respect of this particular area of
your responsibilities?
Mr Wadge: We have a nutrition
division which consists of 30 staff, about 20 of those have a
scientific training, some of those with a professional qualification
in nutrition. That division takes forward a large research programme
on various aspects of nutrition and how that relates to a healthy
diet and issues around consumer choice and acceptability, what
are the barriers to promoting healthy food, particularly amongst
certain groups and disadvantaged groups, and Tom Murray heads
that division. Rosemary Hignett heads up the labelling division
which is taking forward all of the related issues which are clearly
important in terms of enabling consumers to make informed choices
about their diet.
Q1216 Chairman: Is the labelling division
separate from the nutrition division?
Mr Wadge: It is separate but I
think one of the things that we have done and worked well together
on is working in cross division approaches on various topics.
The other important player in this is our communications division
who we work very closely with to build up our policies and our
information campaigns and so forth. There are 30 people in nutrition,
there are about 30 people in the labelling and standards division
and there is also a similar number in communications and we work
together on issues relating to promoting a healthy diet.
Q1217 Chairman: I know we are going to
come on to labelling a little bit later on. Can I ask you, Mr
Murray, to say a bit about your division and the breakdown of
people within that division: the kind of people that you have
got working under you and the approach you are taking within your
division?
Mr Murray: Right. As Andrew has
mentioned, we have got a division of approximately 30 staff. Two
thirds of those staff have nutrition science qualifications and
the remainder are policy/administrative staff. I have a salary
budget in excess of a million pounds and a survey and R&D
budget in the region of about seven million pounds, which is a
major chunk of the Agency's money to undertake R&D. When the
Agency was established, Andrew has mentioned, nutrition was seen
as a key area and one of the challenges at official level has
been to meet the board's aspirations for a broad based action
plan on nutrition. It is interesting that you say a lot of interest
seems to be going to obesity over the last few months since the
Committee started work. In actual fact the Agency started developing
its Nutrition Action Plan, including obesity, from when it was
first established. The Nutrition Action Plan was presented to
the board in December 2001 and I present annual reports to the
board on progress in public and that reflects, I believe, the
Agency's interest in this area. The report in December 2002, the
progress report, ran to 50 pages which I think is a fair indication
of the breadth of the work we are doing. R&D and surveys is
a major part of what we do because we need an evidence base to
identify the problems and to understand them, and understand them
so we can take action on specific areas. You will see—and
the action plans and progress reports are on the website—that
we have taken work forward on the broad front with other Government
departments: the Department of Health, DfES, etc but also with
stakeholders. A number of areas of that work are coming to fruition
in the months ahead and will be significant for obesity.
Q1218 John Austin: You have mentioned
specifically the expenditure on R&D. Can you identify any
areas which have had a particular relevance to obesity?
Mr Wadge: One of the areas that
we have got moving forward at the moment is one exercise to look
at the operation of school meals standards. We are undertaking
that work in conjunction with DfES. It started at the end of last
summer. The results of that will become available over the next
few weeks and we will be looking to publish that in the spring.
I expect that to be a major platform for discussion and action
as necessary to revise or to look again at how these standards
are operating. That is one area.
Q1219 Chairman: Can I just ask—I
do not know who will want to answer this—going back to the
points I raised with Mr Young about the CAP, what is your Agency's
relationship with the European Commission in terms of discussions
on areas like the CAP and its relevance to our food policy and
nutritional and labelling policies?
Mr Wadge: Obviously we attend
a lot of meetings in Brussels in relation to various aspects of
our work and particularly in relation to the labelling side we
are very active and have been pressing the Commission to harmonise
control on labelling throughout Europe.
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