Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1500-1512)
29 MARCH 2004
RT HON
MARGARET HODGE
MBE, MP, MS MELA
WATTS, RT
HON TESSA
JOWELL, MP AND
MR PAUL
HERON
Q1500 Mr Burstow: One of the things which
was very interesting about the comparison between the Scottish
and the English situation is that the standards in Scotland specifically
bar the provision of fizzy drinks as part of a school meal in
primary schools and do not encourage them in secondary schools
and crisps as part of a combination of a meal option or a meal
deal or a packed lunch are only to be offered twice a week, neither
of those things are dealt with in regulations in England. Is that
the sort of thing you think could now be encompassed in English
legislation?
Margaret Hodge: I know it sounds
like I am avoiding the issue, we have asked for a review, we are
carrying out the review, and the review will be with us shortly.
I will make sure that the Committee is sent a copy of the outcomes
of that review and we will have to see what it tells us. I think
it would be wrong to prejudge it at this time.
Q1501 Mr Burstow: Without prejudging
it can you tell us whether or not the review will also be looking
at nutrient standards in respect of school breakfasts?
Margaret Hodge: No we are not
looking at that because the school breakfast is not part of the
statutory entitlement of children in a school day, it is an addition.
Over time it might be interesting to see how the development of
breakfast clubs changes that, at the present time we are looking
at the statutory mid-day meal which is provided in schools on
a statutory basis, not the non-statutory services.
Q1502 Mr Bradley: Talking about fizzy
drinks in primary schools and accepting your point that it is
up to the headteacher to make the decision, when you visit those
schools and you see fizzy drink vending machines in primary schools
and you have a discussion with the head about it and what sort
of arguments do they put to you in favour of having such machines
in their schools?
Margaret Hodge: Interestingly
enough I rarely see them in primary schools, they are much more
often seen in secondary schools, so I do not really enter into
that discussion very much. In the secondary school context we
talk about the educational benefits and disbenefits of having
that there and they put their arguments to me. If you can see
it in that context in the same way this Committee has been influenced
to have an inquiry into obesity and the factors which lead to
growing obesity amongst children I have no doubt that headteachers
being commonsense individuals are thinking about very similar
issues within the confines of their schools. The only other thing
I would add is remember that much of this was introduced at a
time at very, very poor school funding. In the last six or seven
years the huge increase in investment in school funding has eased
the burden on headteachers to manage within the budgets they are
given.
Q1503 Mr Bradley: There is no need for
them to have them at all!
Margaret Hodge: I am not going
that far, I am leaving it for them to decide.
Q1504 Dr Taylor: Going back to the importance
of weight monitoring in schools, I have read today of a Diabetes
UK conference recently where one study was published of seven
year old children and I think 20% of these were overweight or
obese and one third of the parents of the girls and half the parents
of the boys all felt that the weights were about right, they did
not even notice the problem. I would have thought, and would agree,
that really weighing children in school would at least bring home
to parents that there is a problem that they need to take note
of.
Margaret Hodge: Resources will
always be constrained however generous a Labour government is.
The only question I was posing to the Chairman when he raised
this is even if we managed to get additional health resources
into the school environment the use of those for universal testing
is the most appropriate way to employ those resources. All I am
doing is posing that as a question rather than providing you with
an answer.
Q1505 Dr Taylor: It struck me the resources
are there, is it about the amount of time it would take to weigh
the child and record it?
Margaret Hodge: There are far
fewer school nurses today than there were ten years ago. We are
down to 2,000, maybe 4,000 it is a tiny, tiny number of school
nurses now.
Q1506 Jim Dowd: Why do they not weigh
them in the class once a week or once a month and give them a
little card they can take home, that does not have a major resource
implication?
Margaret Hodge: It depends on
whether you want to do it on an individual or on a class basis.
There are children who are obese who feel very self-conscious
about it and weighing in a class is not probably the most appropriate
way to make them feel confident.
Q1507 Jim Dowd: I am not saying in front
of the whole class, you could do it confidentially.
Margaret Hodge: If you do it confidentially
you take them outside the class and you will have the teacher
spending his or her time outside the class weighing. If it is
taken as a class activity as part of developing their numeracy
skills I do not think that is the most appropriate way of trying
to tackle obesity.
Q1508 Dr Taylor: It was on our report
when I went to school, your height and weight were the first things
on the report, it is very valuable.
Margaret Hodge: If you were like
me and you were slightly overweight you felt terrible about that,
absolutely terrible.
Q1509 Mr Burstow: To pick up on one final
question which comes back to one of the questions we were asking
about the role of Ofsted in respect of teaching nutrition, what
assessment has been made by the Department as to the extent of
which basic domestic science is still being taught in schools
given we have received some anecdotal evidence to suggest that
generations coming out of schools now have a far lower basic knowledge
of how to cook and as a consequence of that are driven increasingly
to rely on processed foods and the microwave to meet their dietary
requirements?
Margaret Hodge: Even those who
learned to cook at school are not taking as much time to cook
in the home as adults as our parents did for us. Food technology,
as it is known today, is on universal offer in every primary school
and it is available in 90% of our secondary schools, it is widely
available. About 100,000 young people every year take a GCSE in
food technology. The availability is there. It is a compulsory
element in the curriculum for primary school children. Interestingly
enough if you talk, as I do, to 14 and 15 year olds who have undertaken
a much more modern curriculum than we have I think you will find
that there is a link. In our days we were not really taught about
the ingredients and the nutritional content, or otherwise, in
any great detail or the impact on our health. That link between
being able to cook and linking it back into the healthiness of
the ingredients you choose to cook is much stronger today than
it was in the past, in some ways it is better than it was.
Q1510 Mr Amess: We just wanted confirmation
that the two ministers are pleased that the Health Department
are taking the lead on this issue?
Tessa Jowell: Absolutely.
Margaret Hodge: I could not do
my job if I did not work across Government.
Q1511 Chairman: Can I raise one issue,
you mentioned parents, one of the things which has surprised me
throughout this inquiry is the limited evidence we have had on
the connection between alcohol and obesity, do you have any thoughts
on the connection between alcohol consumption and obesity? What
factors in relation to obesity, taking into account the development
of the Government's strategy on alcohol, are being taken into
account?
Tessa Jowell: The Home Office
is leading on that.
Q1512 Chairman: I appreciate that.
Tessa Jowell: I think you have
to get the information from them. Alcohol is highly calorific
and there are the risks of young people not eating a proper dinner,
going out drinking too much, getting into all sorts of trouble.
These in a sense are clinical issues that I think you would be
better served by getting a considered response from the Chief
Medical Officer. As you will be aware, as a Government generally
we have got a lot of cross-government inter-departmental action
to tackle alcohol and anti-social behaviour. My Department has
led on the new licensing laws which will tackle anti-social behaviour
and improve the protection of children.
Margaret Hodge: Alcohol education
is part of the PSHE curriculum and it is one of the standards
for the healthy school standards work. It is pretty integrated
to the approach we are taking round encouraging children to grow
up in a healthier way.
Chairman: Can I thank you both and your
two colleagues for your evidence today, we are very grateful to
you. Thank you very much.
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