Examination of Witnesses (Questions 361
- 371)
MONDAY 26 APRIL 2004
RT HON
HARRIET HARMAN
MP, COUNCILLOR COLUMBA
BLANGO, MS
CECILIA N TAYLOR-CAMARA,
MR TAMBA
JOHN SYLVERNUS
LAMINA, MRS
AGNES KUMBA
DUGBA MACAULEY,
DR MOHAMED
KOKER AND
MR STEPHEN
SWARAY
Q361 Chairman: Good evening. I understand
you would like to make some introductory comments?
Ms Harman: I am Harriet Harman
and I am Member of Parliament for Camberwell and Peckham and I
would like to use this opportunity just for a couple of minutes
to very warmly welcome you all here, to make some introductions
and to say some thank-yous. Firstly, to the Select Committee for
International Development. I think it is a great honour and a
privilege for Southwark and the people who are here tonight that
we have six Members of Parliament, all members of the Parliamentary
Select Committee on International Development, who have come down
to meet you and to hear your views. So, it is a very proud day
indeed for me. We have Tony Baldry who is the Chairman, John Battle,
Tony Colman, Tony Worthington, Hugh Bayley and Quentin Davies.
So, this is an exceptional occasion. They are conducting an inquiry
into migration and development and I am very, very pleased indeed
that they have come down to hear your views, those of you who
really know, those of you who have come from Sierra Leone. We
also have some other people who I am very pleased to introduce
to the Select Committee, people from Uganda, from Ghana, from
Nigeria and other African countries. So, it has been an opportunity
to do a bit of meeting and networking as well. I would like to
thank also and introduce you to my constituency team, which is
Charlotte Smith and also Dora Dixon-Fyle. Dora has asked me to
remind you to fill in your name and address because what we can
do is send you the minutes of evidence that have come from the
Select Committee and the final report will be sent to you and
we will be able to keep in touch with you. I would like to thank
very warmly our Mayor, Columba Blango, for organising the reception
in the Town Hall and making this Town Hall available for this
important occasion. I would also like to thank those of you who
have undertaken to give evidence and just to say that it is no
coincidence that those Sierra Leoneans who are giving evidence
to this Select Committee include a key member of the London Probation
Service, a doctor, a teacher, a nurse and a businessman. Sierra
Leoneans contribute so much to Southwark and to London and
you also contribute by your commitment, your ongoing commitment,
to Sierra Leone. That commitment of yours to see Sierra Leoneans
in London flourish and to see progress and development in Sierra
Leone is shared by me and it is also shared by the Prime Minister,
Tony Blair, who has, this month, established his Commission for
Africa and, on return from my visit to Sierra Leone—I went
with Marie Staunton from Plan International who is here—I
did a written report and I personally presented it to the Prime
Minister and I have explained to him how important all of your
views are and how you are there to help the United Kingdom Government
get their policy right on Sierra Leone. That commitment is shared
not just by the Prime Minister and myself but by Parliament, not
just the Select Committee but also those in the All-Party Parliamentary
Group on Africa which is chaired by Hugh Bayley. So, the Select
Committee are going to hear evidence, they will then write a report
on migration and development in which they will make proposals
about the United Kingdom's policy and I will then work to make
sure that those positive proposals are taken up by Government
and put into action. So, this is not just a talking shop, this
is about planning for action. I look forward to continuing to
work with you, the Sierra Leonean community in London, as we work
together on issues that we care about and that we can make a difference
on. This event tonight is not just a one-off, it is part of our
continuing work together in the cause of justice and prosperity
for Sierra Leone, a cause to which we are all dedicated. Columba
Blango is in two guises today, he is both Mayor and host with
me to this reception, but he has also put himself on the spot
and is giving evidence to the Select Committee and I would ask
him to say just a couple of words to welcome you.
Councillor Blango: Thank you very
much, Harriet, and I thank everyone for coming. History in Southwark
is made every day. Today is another historic moment in Southwark
where the Select Committee has moved away from the Palace of Westminster
and come right into the heart of the Palace of Southwark where
all decisions are made. I am also happy to see a lot of people
across the board here from different countries. This shows that
there are other people around who have an interest in the issues
of Sierra Leone. I am also happy to see our councillors here to
support this wonderful event. Thank you very much for coming and
we hope that this will be the beginning of a very, very serious
move towards helping in the development and migration in Sierra
Leone. We all know that the British Government have helped and
continue to help Sierra Leone. In most serious and practical terms
when it comes to the development, migration and other issues,
I can say that it has been a sort of lip service but this today
is a moment we all should cherish and, as you heard from the MP
herself, it is going to be taken seriously, the Prime Minister
knows about it and Parliament knows about it. That means Sierra
Leone has been put at the top of the agenda and we hope that the
issues that are discussed here and the conclusions from this meeting
today will be heard by the Prime Minister and that serious action
will be taken. Thank you very much for coming. I hope we have
a wonderful time.
Q362 Chairman: Mr Mayor, thank you
very much for having invited us here this evening. This Committee
tends to be not more informal but I think more friendly than some
other Select Committees. So, we tend to use forenames or Christian
names and I hope you will not mind if I refer to you as Columba
during the evening. Otherwise I shall become confused as to whether
to call you Mr Mayor or Your Worship! I am sure we will have a
great evening. This is a first for the International Development
Committee. We have often taken evidence overseas but I think this
is the first time we have taken evidence in the United Kingdom
outside of the Palace of Westminster. So, this is a first for
us. As Harriet explained, we are conducting an inquiry into migration
and development. One of the things we are learning during the
course of this inquiry is the value of migration for countries
such as the United Kingdom, but a number of issues came up and
one of those was the role of the diaspora in helping development
and, knowing that there was a sizeable Sierra Leonean diaspora
here in Southwark, it seemed a good opportunity to come and take
evidence from you on these issues. My colleagues and I have a
number of questions and we will ask them. It is entirely a matter
for you whether everyone answers them or one or two of you answer
them. We leave that entirely up to you. My first question is,
what contribution do you see the Sierra Leonean diaspora and its
members making to the development of Sierra Leone and how does
that happen?
Mr Lamina: I think the contribution
that the Sierra Leonean diaspora makes to the development of Sierra
Leone is quite enormous depending on how you want to look at it.
Firstly, the issue of remittances where people accrue salaries
and monies and then transfer them over to Sierra Leone, but to
what degree that is actually helping in the development of Sierra
Leone is debatable mainly because most of this money is transferred
by various individuals to their various families back home in
order to help with their possible progress or their own internal
family network. Obviously, some of this money will be transferred
from one family to the other and obviously benefit will grow for
various other people. When talking about sustained development,
these remittances are not taxed by the Sierra Leone Government
in any way whatsoever. There has been a tremendous proliferation
of money transfer shops all around the country and the money that
is sent over is huge, nobody can deny that. With regard to development,
it is difficult to actually pinpoint whether these monies go towards
the general development of the nation.
Mrs Macauley: The Sierra Leonean
diaspora makes contributions in terms of the development of Sierra
Leone by sending remittances and some of the families that lost
their homes during the war are actually building infrastructures
with the remittances that they receive and they are helping to
improve education by being able to afford to pay school fees and
college fees for their children. I think that in that way we are
helping a lot. Without remittances from abroad, families would
actually suffer a great deal because they lost everything during
the war and the money we remit from here help to sustain them
through difficult times. I say that we are really making the most
important contributions because, without the remittances, it is
almost a zero life for most families in Sierra Leone.
Councillor Blango: In my opinion,
there are three basic ways in which Sierra Leoneans contribute
to the development of Sierra Leone. First, primarily through family
connections and family support. Sierra Leoneans in the diaspora
send money and goods back home on individual bases, basically
to support the family and the development of individual families,
not so much for the whole country, to help with medication and
education. The second way in which the diaspora contributes is
the return of skilled Sierra Leoneans to Sierra Leone. Even in
this category of returned Sierra Leoneans, there are three problems.
First, Sierra Leoneans return through international organisations
and agencies basically on contract basis where the rates of pay
are better than the normal rates in the country. The second problem
is through personal connections and contacts. Such people become
square pegs in round holes because they are given the wrong job,
which creates a problem in terms of development. There are also
individuals who return on their own initiatives and expense. Such
people do also face a problem. Most of them try to stick to their
disciplines, policies and principles. They then find themselves
not fitting into the society because they are skilled, highly
motivated and want to keep to their principles. So, they instead
they become demotivated and marginalized. The third category is
people who set up businesses. We have a number of people in the
diaspora who have managed or who have attempted to go back to
Sierra Leone and set up in business, but they are faced with two
main difficulties. The first difficulty is corruption. They try
to find a way around to set up their business because they do
not have the right connections in the right places. Secondly,
they find themselves competing particularly with the Lebanese
who have been in the country for generations. This makes competition
in trade extremely difficult. Members of the diaspora who have
been out for a long time and who want to go back and set up in
business find themselves with loose connections, thus an additional
difficulty.
Dr Koker: I think that the Mayor
has said everything that I wanted to say but I would like to speak
from a personal and professional point of view. I returned from
Sierra Leone last Sunday; I spent nearly four weeks in the country.
I think I would have put the question in a different way: what
have we done within the Sierra Leonean diaspora and what can we
still do? We have contributed in so many ways, as you have heard,
both personally and professionally and there are people who risked
their lives to return to the country during the war, and I would
say that, for us in London, we have contributed to creating peace.
I remember raising money for children and demonstrating to attract
the attention of the British Government for intervention. With
the belated British Government intervention, although successful,
we are very happy and I must say that there is peace in the country.
It is easier for us but the question is, how do we maintain it?
It is difficult and this is a very important question. The peace
has to be maintained by the Sierra Leoneans themselves. I think
we have a very good team here of professionals and businessman
who can be asked the question as to what we contribute. When I
was on duty today—I work in Portsmouth at the Queen Elizabeth
Hospital—and I was asking for time off to come and give
evidence, many people asked me, "Would you like to return
home?" and I think that is a very important question because,
as a trainee doctor, a junior doctor, the one thing that I found
in the country was a lack of professionally qualified people.
Many have run away from the country. I visited the main national
hospital in the country where some renovation is going on but
I did not see more than three doctors there and most of them are
not specialists apart from one who does the operations. By British
standards, they would not have been doing it. I visited schools
and there was a lack of teachers and basic things. So, I think
we can contribute professionally by preparing ourselves, acquiring
the knowledge that we need here and then probably in the long
run getting help from the international community to help us return.
There are so many who wish to do that. We can do that by providing
shelter which is very important and we can do that by providing
salaries but, whichever way, I think professionally and otherwise
we need to contribute to our own peace.
Mr Swaray: From the statistics,
you will find that most of the parliamentarians, professionals
and top businessmen have stayed or resided in Great Britain for
a long time and have acquired skills, and most of the skills made
during the period of peace have been transmitted and contributed
to our society. Unfortunately, as a result of the long conflict
that we have had, our political system has gone a bit. We do not
know where the money is coming from. Coming to the money laundering
area, I think money laundering is fairly strong in that sense
because, when you talk about money laundering, we start thinking
about terrorism. I would like to take it in a milder form and
ask why we do this transfer of money. We cannot realise the benefit
of the money going into Freetown or the provinces until you actually
get down there yourself and see what £10 can do for a family.
How much is needed to pay the rent for an average family and for
medical care. Most of the Sierra Leoneans are being taxed. Nobody
knows about it but this can only be reflected by the amount of
hours they spend working to gain this extra money to send home.
It is a huge task but people are doing it. It goes back to the
type of bonding that we have in Sierra Leone. I would not like
to see my uncle suffer. When I am here, I can send a bit of money
for him and to my sister and this type of commitment creates a
huge problem socially as well because we have to maintain our
families here, we have to think about our career progress and,
at the same time, not let our people down back home. The contribution
we are making is immense.
Q363 Mr Battle: You have spoken about
the contribution you can make but to what extent does the UK Government
here in Britain actually support the work that Sierra Leoneans
and organisations in their efforts to harness the energy, expertise
and experience that is here in the diaspora and also to keep those
links with families and communities in Sierra Leone? What help
do you get and what more could be done?
Mr Swaray: Currently, we are not
talking about putting the mechanisms in place because they are
already in place. There needs to be more awareness created in
people. Let me just start with the immigration issue. Most of
us never knew that we had a right to walk down to the immigration
office, present your case and get the necessary documents you
wanted. The idea was to get there, be an illegal immigrant or
apply for a visa, then you were arrested and came back home. So,
it is about creating awareness. The mechanisms are already there.
There are a number of organisations that I work in, even amongst
the SLPD, the Sierra Leoneans party, and there are other cultural
groups in British society here who are willing to help in this
area. There are a number of charitable organisations but again
we are talking about accountability because most of us like to
contribute enormously, maybe £5 or whatever, to some of these
funds but what happens at the end of the day when the money gets
there? This is the worry. What happens to the money sent by IMF
or other organisations? It is a huge problem. I think these are
the areas we need to address and the only way that this can be
done is by effective monitoring of how these monies are being
spent in Freetown. We get a very wrong impression of being flamboyant
with the statistics saying that the British Government spent £5
million on aid and we see very nice posters in Freetown but what
are behind these posters? These are some of the issues. The peasants
who are supposed to be getting the money never get it.
Dr Koker: The short answer is
that we are not being helped. I do not know of any organised body
through which I can get this relief if I want to contribute, I
mean organised by the British Government. I wonder if the British
Government know how many Sierra Leonean doctors there are in the
community or how many lawyers or how many qualified nurses who
can contribute to the system of the country or with the planning.
The answer is that we are not getting any help where probably
we need it.
Councillor Blango: In terms of
help from the British Government, okay, we know what the British
Government did in helping us finish the war in Sierra Leone but,
apart from that, we are talking here about immigrants, Sierra
Leoneans in Britain, in the diaspora. In that respect, as far
as I am concerned, little or nothing has been done. I would say
that there are two factors we should consider here. Firstly, inasmuch
as the British Government wants to help members of the diaspora,
we have to recognise the diversity of the Sierra Leonean groups.
Some groups are focused particularly on geographical areas and
some have political agendas. This makes it even harder for the
British Government to help. Secondly, it is also extremely difficult
to secure finance for Sierra Leonean groups or charitable organisations
in this country because, in the first place, most organisations
or most people in the diaspora are not skilled enough to fill
in these complicated, long and tedious forms. Training and more
support needs to be given to these groups. It is a case of he
who blows the pipe plays the tune. The British Government and
the international community send all this money to Sierra Leone.
Every time we hear about £10 million, £15 million or
£20 million for different things in Sierra Leone. That money
does not reflect, as my first colleague said, what is on the ground.
We are prepared to send our money—and it is our money because
we pay our taxes and part of that money goes to Sierra Leone—but
this money goes in the wrong direction and is not used properly.
So, if we are prepared to send money to Sierra Leone, we must
be prepared to make sure that it is accounted for and that there
are people in place who can account for the money. It is fine
to say that we will help Sierra Leoneans but how do you account
for your help? So, I do not think that what the British Government
and the international community are doing is very helpful. Thank
you for the money but also make sure that you have influence over
how that money is being spent.
Mrs Macauley: As far as I am concerned,
the UK Government is trying, as the Mayor has said, by helping
the diaspora in so many ways but I am not aware of any direct
involvement of the UK Government with any particular Sierra Leonean
organisation, maybe only through a charity. To maybe conclude
or add to whatever they have said, the British Government could
actually set up a diaspora committee that can maybe liaise with
the internal government to actually see that whatever is sent
is properly spent and is used for the purpose for which it is
sent. Unless vigorous supervision is done, the monies or donations
will just go down the drain and that frustrates the community
out here and discourages us from actually getting involved in
the affairs or development of Sierra Leone.
Mr Lamina: My knowledge as far
the issue of the British Government's support of the Sierra Leonean
organisations in the diaspora is almost non-existent. If the British
Government are doing anything at all in support of these organisations,
then it is not trumpeted enough for us to be aware of it. What
I am aware of is that some organisations in their bid to increase
their fundings do register as charitable organisations and, by
so doing, they receive contributions from the Charity Commission,
which is an indirect way of the British Government supporting
some of these organisations. These organisations would also meet
their charitable objectives through the monies they receive from
these charitable bodies. Having said that, to register as a charitable
body is not an easy thing and obviously people do try to register
but the road is full of hurdles and, as such, it becomes very
difficult. As far as the question is concerned with regard to
the British Government helping Sierra Leonean organisations in
the diaspora in order to harness the energy to develop in various
ways, I am not aware of the answer.
Mr Colman: I feel that I am a member
of the Sierra Leone diaspora in that I was responsible for the
Kingsway stores in Freetown in the 1960s. I mentioned this in
congratulating the Prime Minister for his actions in Sierra Leone
and he sent a nice note to me saying that his father, Leo Blair,
had actually taught in Freetown, so you have some links there.
There is something called the Old Coasters' Association which
brings together businessmen who have worked in Sierra Leone over
the last 30 or 40 years and I think that is an organisation that
any diaspora organisation representing Sierra Leone's needs to
perhaps link up with that, people who may have finance and influence
that could link with Sierra Leonean citizens in Britain. My question
is, to what extent is the Sierra Leonean diaspora considered as
a valuable development resource by the Government of Sierra Leone
and how does the Government of Sierra Leone engage with the Sierra
Leonean diaspora and what could it do better or more of in this
regard? We have heard about the monitoring of remittances and
we have heard you saying that they need to be more accountable,
but what is the Sierra Leone Government doing now, how are they
engaging with you and what would more would you like them to do
with you, the diaspora?
Q364 Chairman: Cecilia, now that
you have arrived, perhaps you would like to answer this question
first.
Ms Taylor-Camara: The Government
of Sierra Leone did embark on a campaign in the post-war re-construction
to encourage Sierra Leoneans to return home. In his recent addresses
to the Sierra Leonean community in the diaspora, President Kabbah
did encourage Sierra Leoneans to go back home. The question is
whether there was a commitment to sustain the campaign and what
is amazing is that it was clear that the structures were not in
place to sustain people when they returned. I speak as one of
the Sierra Leoneans who returned to make a contribution and then,
of course, became a female victim of war and had to leave. The
Sierra Leone Government needs to consider or regard the diaspora
as a valuable developmental resource. The Government has to be
well disposed towards its professionals. Many Sierra Leoneans
have taken the leap to return home on a scouting expedition but
the story from everybody coming back is the same. On arrival in
Sierra Leone you have to lobby. If you are offered a job, you
have to lobby to get a seat or a computer to work with and a salary
to sustain you. Many people have had to come back at their own
expense leaving their families here in the UK. This is very dispiriting.
The Government of Sierra Leone would need to recognise that there
is a pool of skilled and talented Sierra Leoneans here in the
diaspora and we could be utilised, our resources could be exploited
for the benefit of the country. But the fact is that the Government
of Sierra Leone claims it has no money. So, how do we address
this issue? We have to start looking at issues like debt cancellation
so that the Government can have a footing to start on. We have
to start looking at fair trade and what we expect Sierra Leoneans
to plough back into our system. Sierra Leone has been crippled
by war. So many of the talented Sierra Leoneans are working for
international organisations abroad. I once had to recommend support
for a Sierra Leonean to study abroad and my then (British) manager
asked me what the implications were to support somebody to study
in the UK at the expense of British tax payers, and I said that
if the High Commission did not give him the award, he was not
going to make it. As it happens, he never actually went back to
Sierra Leone; he stayed here in the UK and contributed to this
country. He is paying his taxes here. I do not know if he sends
remittances but he is not in the system in Sierra Leone. That
is where we need the support. People in the system here need support
to plough back into Sierra Leone all the resources gained within
the diaspora.
Councillor Blango: The extent
to which Sierra Leoneans in the diaspora are considered a valuable
development resource is a very important question. We are not
considered in any way as a valuable resource. That is my first
reaction. There is plenty of lip service to Sierra Leoneans. The
Government officials come here and selectively see what they want
to see. They pay lip service to people and they come and tell
us, "Go home, there is a place for you", but they cannot
convince us of their commitment. Those of them who say, "Go
home, there is a place for you" are sending their children,
their girlfriends and wives here. It is pathetic to come and tell
us to go. They do not even know what most of us are doing here
and they do not want to know. All they do is come and say go back.
We all want to go but we need to have somewhere to go back to
and they need to make provision for that. Also, I turn to the
issue of the Sierra Leone High Commission here. Today is a very
important day but there is no representative here from the Sierra
Leone High Commission. That is how they value us. The Sierra Leone
High Commission has a very uneasy relationship with the Sierra
Leonean diaspora. When it comes to things like this, we should
be able to get information and statistics from the Sierra Leone
High Commission. The problem is this, there are a lot of skilled
Sierra Leoneans in the diaspora and in my view—and I am
sure that a lot of people share this view with me—if you
are highly qualified and skilled with high standards, you are
looked at as a threat when you return home. That is where the
problem starts. This demotivates any skilled Sierra Leonean to
make the sacrifice of returning home. I think the solution to
this is that the British Government—and I repeat this—and
the international community should ensure that there is a structure
in place for Sierra Leoneans wanting to return because I doubt
the Sierra Leone Government would be committed to put the structure
in place to welcome Sierra Leoneans. Take for instance Ghana—make
that the sort of example we should be practising in Sierra Leone.
The bulk of the money that goes into Sierra Leone comes from Britain.
It should therefore be the moral responsibility of Britain to
make sure a system is in place to influence and account for all
the money going in and that this money or whatever help the Sierra
Leone Government receives reflects on the majority of people and,
if they are serious about development in Sierra Leone and they
want our skills and they consider us a valuable resource, then
the structure should be put in place as it happened in Ghana.
Mr Swaray: I am going back to
the post-colonial period and it used to be very nice to see people
come here to study and, before they finished their exams, they
were talking about going back home. They knew that the opportunities
were there for them with the facilities to work in a society and
contribute generally. I think that is what they lost. It is very
sad. If you complete your studies and present your CV or whatever
you might have, they say, "Come to Freetown. Whenever you
come, just walk into my office, you are welcome" but, on
the day you set a foot in there, you become enemy number one.
These are some of the fundamental issues. Nobody understands it.
It is a cancer.
Q365 Tony Worthington: Can I switch
to the general issue of migration. Like Harriet Harman, I am a
long-term resident of Southwark and I have seen the building up
of the African diaspora within this borough and have realised
that I do not understand how it works very much at all. Can you
put that all in context? We tend to assume that migration is of
people from Sierra Leone to here. What other migration is going
on within West Africa or within Sierra Leone the rest of the time
and how was that affected by the war and what changes have occurred
since the war ended?
Mrs Macauley: Historically, migration
within Sierra Leone has been very limited until the war. People
move from rural areas to urban areas in search of education or,
for instance, they move towards the east diamond area which is
very rich in natural resources and people move from their villages
to Freetown because of the universities etc. I would say that
they move with the aim of self-improvement; they go in search
of reducing poverty or empowering themselves educationally or
economically. Migration in general was seen as a way of contributing
to poverty reduction. This has been going on for some time. Some
people actually migrate as far as the UK or Europe in search of
higher education with the aim of returning more educated but you
can see the influx are not returning because there has been no
improvement over the years, not only in Sierra Leone but in most
African countries, because, as my colleagues have said earlier
on, you want to be in places where you see that you are improving,
where you see structures. Instead of going back and seeing a house
that you saw in Sierra Leone ten years ago painted, developed
or improved, you now see it broken and burnt down. You go to a
village where there was a primary school or secondary school and
now there is no school at all. So, instead of progressing, Sierra
Leone has been deteriorating for over a decade. This has been
going on for a very long time. For example, I came to England
in 1978; I finished my course and wanted to go home and I actually
packed and went but I could not get a job, so I told my mum, "I
am better off going back to England, maybe to even do a cleaning
job." So, the Sierra Leone situation has encouraged this
movement and has actually forced people to migrate because the
poverty situation remains the same. There is no development taking
place, no constructive structure, I must say, within the Government
and some of us are frustrated with the situation and therefore
choose to move because I feel that if I were in Freetown or in
one permanently underdeveloped area, I would move to other provinces
or even another country in search of self-improvement. For people
who have studied or are now studying here, there is no way that
they want to go back to the same situation. So, these are reasons
why you see a number of people moving and not going back.
Mr Lamina: As my colleagues have
already said, the level of migration has been determined by the
economic reasons for most of the time. People moving from an area
of poverty to make themselves better. Within Sierra Leone itself,
migration has been moving from the villages to the town centres
or moving from the town centres to the city and, in recent times,
people have been moving from various local areas all around the
country in search of diamonds. So, one can see that the population
increase in the diamond areas escalated a great deal and has in
a high increase and, during the war, although the diamond areas
were quite affected by the war and were hot spots, it was amazing
to find the number of people who still resided in these diamond
areas and still continuing mining diamonds. During the 1970s and
1980s, the migration pattern from Sierra Leone outside was mainly
either people moving within the local region or people moving
from Sierra Leone to Liberia in search of the dollar because obviously
the economy in Liberia was much stronger and, if you had not obtained
much in terms of education, you could find jobs in Liberia. In
most recent times, the movement has been preferably to the United
States and the second place of choice would be the UK or other
European countries governed mostly by economic reasons. People
do become educated here and obviously want to go back, but the
economic situation back home does not augur well for them to return
and, as such, migration will actually continue. The sole factors
that have actually helped people move out from Sierra Leone will
have to be improved upon and then I think it will be a stagnant
population where people will want to stay in Sierra Leone.
Q366 Hugh Bayley: I think that Harriet
Harman has done a great job in getting us to relate the UK's development
policies to the views of the diaspora here in the UK, but what
I am still not sure about is whether migration from Africa to
the UK is helpful to the development of Africa or whether it undermines
it. Since the UK is committed to working with African countries
to help them address poverty which, as a number of the speakers
have said, is one of the key causes of migration, what does the
UK need to do and what changes do we need to bring about in Africa
to ensure that those goals are met? Should we be encouraging migration
to the UK or are we simply undermining the development opportunities
for African countries and should we be doing something different
and, if we should be doing something different or something as
well, what would that something be?
Councillor Blango: To me, the
answer is "yes" and "no". Yes, migration as
it is now. For the short-term development of any country, migration
could be helpful in the development of that country in the sense
that people in the diaspora would be able to do some work and
help in the development of individuals and, infrastructure-wise
by building houses and other things. That is not the right way
forward because it is not sustainable and it is not progressive
because it only helps sustain the lives of and makes some people
comfortable instead of the majority. It is not everybody or every
family in Sierra Leone that has the opportunity of having a member
of the family overseas. No, migration causes brain drain. A lot
of us here in a way have skills, skills that are needed in Sierra
Leone. In this respect, I would jump to a quick conclusion to
say that the best way to answer the question and to address the
situation is for the UK Government and the international community
to create a mechanism whereby in the short, medium or perhaps
long-term basis, skilled Sierra Leoneans could go and help in
various ways develop the country while their jobs and families
remained secured There are lawyers, engineers, and medical doctors
who are prepared to go in on this basis as long as they are paid
enough to sustain themselves and their families. I would like
to suggest that, if it is going to happen, it happens through
the UK Government because, at the moment, I would not trust the
commitment of the Sierra Leone Government to handle this, to commit
themselves to this and give people a good deal to enable them
to help in the development of their country.
Q367 Tony Worthington: People have
suggested to us in other evidence sessions that temporary work
permits which guaranteed re-entry into Britain at a later date
would definitely encourage return migration to Sierra Leone, if
they had the certainty that they had not, as it were, burnt their
boats here. Is that what you were advocating and would it really
work?
Councillor Blango: I think it
would work and that is what I am advocating. It will work. Here
is everyone; ask them if that is what they want. Everybody who
is favour of that, would you put your hand up, please. Those who
would go to Sierra Leone on a short or long-term basis with a
guaranteed return back to Britain.
Q368 Chairman: The shorthand writer
will have to note that the proposal met with acclaim.
Councillor Blango: A number of
Sierra Leoneans would like that and it would be better for the
country and better for the individuals and that will encourage
Sierra Leoneans to go in harmony and settle down.
Ms Taylor-Camara: I would like
to add to what Councillor Columba Blango has said. The Sierra
Leone Government does not recognise dual citizenship and many
Sierra Leoneans in the diaspora are holders of EU and UK passports.
If you want to reside in Sierra Leone, you have to renounce the
British citizenship and all that entails to be recognised as a
Sierra Leonean. There are very few Sierra Leoneans here who are
willing to do that. Therefore, it has to be impressed upon the
Government to take on board the recommendations of the Peter Tucker
Commission of 1990, which suggested that there should be an abolition
of the restriction on the part of the Sierra Leonean Government
against Sierra Leoneans who have British passports or other non-Sierra
Leonean citizenship. If you are a member and citizen of an ECOWAS
state, you have more rights in Sierra Leone than a Sierra Leonean
visitor who has a British passport or an EU passport. That is
what will have to happen to encourage expatriates from the diaspora
and Sierra Leoneans who are holders of British passports to go
to Sierra Leone and have the right to buy property and have a
right to participate in politics. It affects other Sierra Leoneans
as well who are holders of other passports, ie Lebanese, American
or other EU passport holders as well as UK passport holders. The
British Government should insist that this should be recognised.
As it happens, some of the Members in Government were also members
of the Tucker Commission of 1990 that made this very recommendation.
Q369 Mr Davies: That was a good practical
example of an important issue that the Government should take
up with the Sierra Leone Government. Can I ask about a different
matter altogether. We read in the media quite a bit about the
problems and the tragedies of human trafficking, that is to say
people who make money by arranging illegal immigration, people
who are perhaps involved in prostitution, people who are even
involved in kidnapping children. Have any of you come across any
instances of human trafficking between Sierra Leone and this country?
Ms Taylor-Camara: I would like
to make a comment on that. There was a time when there was an
issue of children being brought to the UK unattended and these
children were holders of Sierra Leonean passports. But, it is
sometimes difficult to say who is a genuine Sierra Leonean because
we have had a system in the past that has allowed non-Sierra Leoneans
to be holders of Sierra Leonean passports and we were caught up
in a racket. The particular example that comes to mind is the
case of the girls who flew from Manchester on tickets bought from
the Gambia and were found in Thailand implicated in a drugs scandal.
One of the people the authorities apprehended in a hotel was the
holder of a Sierra Leonean passport who had given two addresses
in Sierra Leone—Bathust Street and Leah Street. Whether
he was really a Sierra Leonean, we are not sure. Therefore, that
is rather difficult for us to answer this question because we
do not really know who has a Sierra Leonean passport and, over
the years because of the corruption within the country, so many
things have happened that we cannot account for.
Q370 Chairman: Can I move on to another
point about remittances. At the beginning of the discussion, the
panel made it clear that one of the ways in which the Sierra Leonean
diaspora helped here is by sending remittances back to Sierra
Leone, maybe to members of the family but still money that is
going back to Sierra Leone. Someone mentioned the problems of
money laundering and regulations have really made this much more
difficult and I was just wondering what methods do Sierra Leoneans
in the UK use to remit money back to Sierra Leone. How do they
choose those particular channels? How much of those remittances
are lost, what percentage of those remittances are lost in bank
and other charges? What suggestions do you have as to what more
the UK Government could do to encourage Sierra Leoneans to remit
but also to ensure that more of that money which is remitted actually
gets to the people for whom it is intended in Sierra Leone?
Mr Swaray: I think we started
from this issue and money matters are always very touchy! The
idea of sending monies back home takes different shapes and forms.
It is quite a complex issue. Starting from the formal way through
the banks, this was the normal procedure before the war. However,
during the conflict in Sierra Leone, most of the banks lost their
credibility, as a result of which most people no longer have current
accounts or saving accounts in Sierra Leone any more. So, the
boom in the transfer of money and I cannot call it illegal because
most of the shops that are transmitting money back to Freetown
or Sierra Leone in general register and they are taking all the
precautionary measures to make sure that monies get through to
the right person at a very, very cheap cost as compared with all
the other established bureaux who have been operating in past
years in Britain where it is quite expensive to send money through.
The sum involved is huge. Taking Southwark alone, we are talking
about over £200,000 on a weekly basis. We are quite aware
that there is definitely a lot of money being lost along the route
as a result of these transfers but there is not much at the moment
you can do to ensure that the taxes are being paid on this money,
back home not here, and that, if there is any conflict between
the banks in Sierra Leone, the bureaux issuing the monies out
. . . If you went to Freetown, you would find a lot of young guys
standing by the banks. This is evident. You would find 20 or 30
boys standing right in front of the bank who will exchange money
with anybody and they have a better rate! It is commonsense. I
think that charity begins at home. If things are to be tightened
up, the Government of Sierra Leone is not blind and not stupid,
they should do something about it, and tighten it up back home
so that it is regulated. That is the only problem we are getting
and I think it is a problem where that has been done because,
at the end of the day, there is so much understanding in transferring
these monies that a lady can stay at home and ring the bureau
and say, "My mother is very sick in bed. Can you please do
this favour for me and get that money quickly to that individual"?
This is being done today and that money has gone for a good purpose.
If you went to the bank, there are a number of cases where you
have to bribe to get money out of your current account. What is
the credibility there? It is as a result of these dishonest practices
that has actually created the boom in this money transfer market.
There is a way to actually get around doing it here because we
have tried a couple of times to get local businessmen into consultation
to see how to maximise the transfer of money because that is the
only means of getting money to the needy people back home. There
is no other way. So, we are in consultation with a couple of businessmen
and I hope that a forum will be created by the British Government.
Luckily, we have the MPs here to take that on board, so you can
actually deliberate and look into these issues and find out how
it can be effectively carried out to benefit both Sierra Leoneans
back at home and benefit the community as well.
Dr Koker: I will speak from experience.
Before I went to Sierra Leone five weeks ago, I needed to send
money home through several means as the last speaker said. One
way was to just give a friend £100 or £50 and say, "Drop
this down to a relative for me, please." How they got that
money changed into leones was a matter for them. Another way is
that you have several shops in London that send money legally,
as the last speaker said, because they are licensed to do so.
On arrival in Sierra Leone, the black market is functioning well
and people get a lot from that. You also have these other semi-legal
shops—I do not know if they pay tax to the Sierra Leone
Government—which are like the bureau de change here. Little
shops with the exchange rate on the board where you see leone/dollar
and leone/pound and you can see the rate on the board there. The
problem we have in Africa, or let me speak of Sierra Leone, is
that the banking system has not really gone that well, even before
the war. People do not really keep their money in banks. The post
office banking is a way of keeping our money because if the Government
is getting money that way or the banks are getting money, then
probably the exchange rate would go up, but people are not aware
of how to keep these monies. The exchange rate is different in
different shops. If you go to Freetown, the exchange rate is 4,800
leones or at another it is 4,600 and, if you go to the bank, it
would be 3,200 and so on. So, I think that we need improvement
in the banking system in order that people can rely on keeping
their money in the bank. There are a lot of leones in the country
which are going back and forth and this has increased the tendency
for people to go through the black market. Now that the war has
ended, there are a number of aid agencies and people are saying
that they are in need of aid money. The banks need improvement
in order to create more even rates across the country.
Ms Taylor-Camara: A high percentage
of women in Sierra Leone are grassroots women who have no access
to the banking facilities and, as it happens, the bureaux have
been outlets people feel very comfortable to walk into as long
as they have their ID numbers in order to get their money. Some
women feel intimidated at having to go to the bank and have to
sign with assistance or put their thumbprint on a document. So,
for grassroots women, these non-banking services are really helpful
and they are beginning to understand what it means to have their
money somewhere safe, where it can be accessed with ease. Over
the years, with economic decline, there was nothing in place for
these women to save their money or to earn interest on it. Many
people are now very confident to walk into the bureau, change
their money with minimum charges and spend it on what they want
to. In Sierra Leone most people do not have savings, they just
live on what they receive from time to time.
Chairman: Can I make a suggestion? Before
I ask Tony Colman to ask what I think may well be the final question,
I would like to give everyone our e-mail address which is a very
simple e-mail address: indcom@parliament.uk. If friends have thoughts
about how we can improve the flow of remittances or indeed if
friends here have any thoughts on any other policy area because
I think, by the range of questions that have been asked this evening,
people will have an idea of the issues that are interesting us
in this report, please will they e-mail us.[1]
Q371 Mr Colman: My last question
is really linking up the issue of remittances with the earlier
discussion which was the employment of people to deliver health
services, education services etc in Sierra Leone. Poverty reduction
is in large part about the provision of public goods: better health
services, improved educational facilities and better water and
sanitation. Remittances are, of course, private transactions primarily
between family members. Do you believe that UK policy should seek
to channel this private giving into the provision of public goods
in Sierra Leone or would this amount to an unwelcome interference
and therefore be an ineffective interference in individuals' actions?
If voluntary schemes were established to enable the effective
use of remittances for poverty reduction, would the Sierra Leonean
diaspora in the United Kingdom use them?
Mr Lamina: I think it would be
an unwelcome interference mainly because we do not actually know
the extent to which individuals channel money back home. Obviously,
it is a huge amount. What we have is the amount of money that
is probably spent by international bodies or governments abroad.
That is quite tangible in terms of what is being spent, but to
just say that you are going to try and encourage Sierra Leoneans
to remit money into various development aspects in Sierra Leone
I do not think would be sustainable. I think that what is happening
at the moment in terms of individuals sending monies would augment
what the British Government and various other charitable bodies
are doing at the moment in sending aid back to Sierra Leone. To
actually ask Sierra Leoneans to foot the bill of developmental
issues in Sierra Leone, there is no evidence to say that that
is going to be quite palatable at all among Sierra Leoneans and
we do not know the degree to which the Sierra Leoneans are going
to send this money, so it is unreliable.
Mrs Macauley: Can I add to what
my colleagues have said? The issue here is that Sierra Leoneans
really do not have that trust because there is no structure again,
no supervision or policy for whatever goes back home to aid these
projects. Just like what donor countries are sending back home.
What we would want to see especially in helping us develop Sierra
Leone is to have first of all a structure back home that is reliable,
that we trust enough because, if I do not trust the development
policies back home, I am not going to send my money to anybody
because I know that it will be misused and not accounted for because
of the high level of corruption. What we are saying here is that
returning home is not going to be, like my colleague said, palatable
to Sierra Leoneans. Just to go back on trying to find a solution
in helping develop Sierra Leone, what I would suggest is that,
as a condition for aid to Sierra Leone in particular, donor countries
agree on the sustainable policies and projects in place in terms
of education, that there are proper schools, that teachers are
paid, that there are books and pencils available, the basics,
and that there are proper hospitals, and ensure that there is
a clear policy laid down to getting these facilities, that you
have to go through the proper channels and not by bribing the
doctor to have an operation done. These are the sort of things
that we want done in Sierra Leone and this will encourage, I am
sure, not only donor countries but even Sierra Leoneans to invest
in the development of the country. Without the assistance of proper
structures by donor countries really trying to see that our Government
or our main structures in Sierra Leone are properly supervised
and are working, I do not think we will have people going back
to settle or sending money to help in development issues.
Dr Koker: I see two aspects to
this. Whatever we want to do, I think it is all well and good
for whatever intention, we should separate what should be government
responsibility and what should be the individual citizen's responsibility.
That should be made clear. Things like roads, power, power supply,
transport, education, healthcare, that should be government responsibility.
I do also recognise that, to alleviate poverty in Sierra Leone,
it needs our skills, it needs our support, the skills and support
of the diaspora, and, as my colleagues have said, there must be
a system in place to sustain those skills or whoever goes there
to work. With better structure, we get better results and, at
the end of the day, you have to work to build a structure and
having the right people to build the structures. There are structures
in Sierra Leone but our problem is in maintaining those structures.
We need the skill to build the structures and get skilled people
to maintain the structures.
Chairman: May I make a suggestion? There
are six members of this Committee here and I want to be confident
that all of those people in the audience have an opportunity to
make their point. What I would like to do is draw the formal part
of the proceedings to an end very soon but actually my colleagues
and myself will be here for the next half an hour or 20 minutes.
We will spread ourselves around the room in order that every friend
who wants to make a point can come and make that point to one
of us or more of us during the time that is available and we can
take those points away with us. In fairness, I do not think that
we are going to have time to have speeches from everybody. So,
Mr Mayor, can I, on behalf of the Committee, say how very much
we have benefited, that is all the Committee, from this evening's
exchanges. Indeed, I think you have been rather more robust on
some matters raised in international development than some members
of the Committee very often are and that has been extremely helpful
for us, for which we are extremely grateful. I think it has also
been helpful in having a perspective in our deliberations on such
things as skilled people, remittances and some of the very human
decisions that you have to make. So, we are extremely grateful
to Harriet Harman for having helped organise this evening, you
as the Mayor and your colleagues for having formed a panel, and
we are also very grateful to everyone from the diaspora and from
other communities who have turned up this evening to take part,
for how you have reacted and also for the way in which this meeting
has gone. What we are going to do now is formally finish and then
my colleagues and I will move to different parts of the room and
people can come and talk to us for the next 20 minutes or so.
1 Several memoranda received. Not printed. Copies
placed in the Library. Back
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