|
UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 573-ii House of COMMONS MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE
ORPHANS AND CHILDREN MADE VULNERABLE BY AIDS
33 St James's Square, London Thursday 20 May 2004 RONALD NSUBUGA, ISAAC TUMWESIGYE, AGATHA NAKAKEMBO, JAMALIE TOTO, JOB KIGOZI, PROSSY NAMPEERA, PAUL SENTONGO and FIONA NAKAWESI Evidence heard in Public Questions 55 - 113
USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT
Oral Evidence Taken before the International Development Committee on Thursday 20 May 2004 Members present Tony Baldry, in the Chair John Barrett Mr John Battle Mr Tony Colman Mr Quentin Davies Chris McCafferty Tony Worthington ________________ Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Ronald Nsubuga, Isaac Tumwesigye, Agatha Nakakembo, Jamalie Toto, Job Kigozi, Prossy Nampeera, Paul Sentongo, and Fiona Nakawesi, Orphans and Children made vulnerable by AIDS in Uganda, examined. Chairman: Firstly, can I thank Plan International very much for having organised this session. We are a Committee of the House of Commons, the UK Parliament, that takes a particular concern in issues relating to international development. One of the matters with which we are particularly concerned is hearing people who are directly concerned speak to us and give evidence to us. It is brilliant that through this video link we are able to talk to you and, more importantly, you are able to talk to us. Thank you very much, and thank you very much for all the work that you have done preparing this session, it is very, very much appreciated. What I am going to do is I am going to ask my colleagues very, very briefly to introduce themselves so you will know who is here. My name is Tony Baldry. I am 54 and I have been a Member of Parliament for 21 years. Let me introduce, on my left, John Barrett. John, say a little bit about yourself. John Barrett: I am John Barrett. I am a Liberal Democrat MP from Scotland. I am age 50. It is a delight to be here today and I am looking forward to speaking to Job. Mr Colman: I am Tony Colman and I am the Member of Parliament for Putney, which is part of London. I have been to Kampala before. I am a father and my two children are ages ten and twelve. They are both boys. I hope to be able to hear from Ronald. Mr Battle: I am John Battle, a Labour Member of Parliament for Leeds in the North of England. I have three children who are 21, 23 and 26. I am hoping to hear from Jamalie. Chris McCafferty: My name is Chris McCafferty. I am Member of Parliament for the Calder Valley, which is in the North of England in Yorkshire. I think I am probably the oldest member of this group, I am 59 years old. I have one son who is 32. I am going to be talking to Prossy. Mr Davies: Hello. I am Quentin Davies. I have been a Member of Parliament since 1987, so that is for 17 years. I represent a constituency in the East of England, in Lincolnshire. I have got two boys ages 15 and 16. Q55 Chairman: Ronald, would you like to introduce your team and tell us a bit about the issues by way of introduction. Ronald Nsubuga: Thank you. First of all, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome you over there in London to our city, Kampala. First of all I will introduce myself by saying that I am Ronald, 15 years of age and I am an orphan. Next to me is my friend, Jamalie. Jamalie Toto: I am Jamalie, 14 years of age. Ronald Nsubuga: Next to him is Agatha. Agatha Nakakembo: I am Agatha, 16 years of age. I am in senior school. Isaac Tumwesigye: I am Isaac, 11 years old. Ronald Nsubuga: Thank you, Isaac. On my right-hand side we have Job. Job Kigozi: I am Job, 15 years of age. Ronald Nsubuga: Another one is Prossy. Prossy Nampeera: I am Prossy, 16 years of age. Ronald Nsubuga: Thank you. Also I will introduce Paul. Paul Sentongo: I am Paul, 15 years old. Ronald Nsubuga: Also there is Fiona. Fiona Nakawesi: I am Fiona, 13 years old. Ronald Nsubuga: Thank you very much, Fiona. I will also give a bit of background about HIV/AIDS in Uganda, most especially on children. There are about 2.3 million orphans in Uganda and one million of these are orphans due to HIV/AIDS. Life is very hard for orphans and displaced children in Uganda. Firstly, the children in Uganda have got problems and some of these problems include access to drugs, expensive secondary education and poor medical or health care. The problems are so large and we need to have access to effective programmes and services to address them. Without our parents, or when they are sick, they cannot manage to provide for us our immediate needs of nutrition, education, healthcare, love and guidance, clothing, housing and other children's needs. We have needs, we suffer many problems and we think it is important that we are included in finding the solutions. This team has been discussing these issues for the last two weeks and we have been trying to understand our own situations better. I would like you to listen to the five selected members talking about the children and HIV/AIDS in Uganda. Welcome. I introduce Prossy to give us the hopes and fears. Prossy Nampeera: Thank you, Ronald. During the first day of the session we wrote our hopes and fears. These are our hopes. I hope that I shall be able to reach my community about the effects of HIV/AIDS. Another hope was I hope that the Parliament in the UK will help some of our friends who are affected and infected in the parish. I hope that we shall have good discussions on 20 May. I hope that the number of people dying of HIV/AIDS in Uganda shall decrease. Lastly, I hope that us meeting here will limit the percentage of HIV/AIDS in the area where we live and Uganda as a whole. Those were our hopes. These were our fears. I fear that AIDS is a deadly disease with no solution. Those future generations in Uganda will continue to be affected, so that is bad for us. Another fear was I fear that AIDS is killing most of the kids in Uganda and even in the world at large. Lastly, but not least, I fear that we shall be too shy to speak to the parliamentarians. Talking to that number of people, I fear talking on behalf of someone else. Lastly, I fear that there is no hope for HIV/AIDS patients in Uganda and there are no funds to assist them financially. Those were our hopes and fears, thank you. Ronald Nsubuga: Thank you very much Prossy, for our wonderful fears and hopes which we discussed last week. To embark on the first question which our group has discussed, it goes as follows: as most people out there are saying that AIDS has no cure, as we are the future generation what will be the best solution for us not to be affected by this disease. Chairman: Ronald, thank you very much for that introduction and thank you very much for introducing your team and for setting out so clearly your hopes and fears. I think how we are going to do it is that I am going to ask a number of my parliamentary colleagues to ask questions and, to make it as straightforward as possible, one of my parliamentary colleagues will ask each of you questions in turn. My friend, Tony Colman, is going to ask you questions, Ronald, then John Barrett is going to ask Job, John Battle is going to ask Jamalie, Chris is going to ask Prossy and Quentin is going to ask Agatha. Q56 Mr Colman: Ronald, good afternoon. As I say, my two sons are called Alexander and Oliver. Alexander is twelve and Oliver is ten, so you are older than them. The questions you have suggested that I should ask you, just to confirm, are about being HIV/AIDS infected, about being an orphan and about stigma and discrimination. Those are the three headings that I was told you were interested that I, as Tony, should ask you, Ronald. You are prepared in those three areas, are you? Ronald Nsubuga: Yes. Q57 Mr Colman: The first question is a very difficult one. If a pregnant mother is HIV/AIDS positive, what do you think should be done to ensure that the baby does not get HIV/AIDS? Ronald Nsubuga: Thank you very much. On this point of getting HIV or being HIV/AIDS infected, when a pregnant mother is giving birth to a child that must involve the clinical and work trained doctors or midwives to help that mother, for example, in the cutting of the umbilical cord and when a mother is producing there needs to be a professional midwife to prevent blood contamination from the mother, who is infected, to the baby. Q58 Mr Colman: Are there drugs available in Uganda to help ensure that the babies are not infected? Ronald Nsubuga: I beg your pardon? Q59 Mr Colman: Are there any drugs available in Uganda to stop the baby being infected by the mother? Ronald Nsubuga: Yes, there are drugs available but they are very expensive. If a mother is very poor she will not appropriate those medicines since they are very expensive. Q60 Mr Colman: Shall we go on to the second question then. Would it be a good idea that parents should get priority in receiving anti-retrovirals, that is drugs to ensure that parents can stay alive when they are HIV/AIDS positive? Do you think parents should get the priority so that you do not become orphans? Ronald Nsubuga: Yes, parents should get the drugs or medicine in order not to leave us to be orphans. Q61 Mr Colman: Is that happening in Uganda? Do parents get priority? Ronald Nsubuga: It is happening to those parents who have got some money but these poor parents cannot afford that. Q62 Mr Colman: My third question is do you believe that if the wider community in your neighbourhood in Kampala knew more about HIV/AIDS transmission they would not discriminate against you? I think you suggested that there was a problem of discrimination. Do you think if people knew more about it they would not discriminate? Ronald Nsubuga: Yes, of course. I will give an example. At our school our classmates, when they were told that a person without HIV cannot get it from shaking hands or sharing food, when these students got to know that from this AIDS programme that you cannot get AIDS through catching a ball or eating or sharing food with friends, they stopped discriminating against the AIDS infected children in our school. If citizens of a country are educated more about the ways in which AIDS can be transmitted to a person or cannot be transmitted that will avoid this problem of discrimination and stigma. Thank you. Q63 Mr Colman: Thank you very much, Ronald. That is the end of my questions. Ronald Nsubuga: You are welcome. Chairman: I think John is going to ask Job some questions, if that is all right. Q64 John Barrett: Job, it is nice to see you. I was wondering, when children lose their parents through HIV and AIDS, who is it that they turn to for care and attention? Who do they turn to for advice? Job Kigozi: I think without their parents the relatives do not show care, love and attention but due to lack of drugs in our country--- Let me say the drugs are available but they are expensive. If we had enough drugs our parents would stay for longer and we would not have been discriminated against and we would be showed love. We are not showed love and care in the way that people in our community treat you badly. They think if one person in the house is sick that everyone in the house is sick, which is not good for us. This lack of love, care and attention is the same as stigma and discrimination. If you do not have someone to show you love and care you are discriminated against in some communities of Uganda which makes us feel the effects of being orphaned and we have the problem of lack of love, care and attention. Q65 John Barrett: Thank you, Job. Do most children turn to extended family, their grandparents, their cousins, their aunts and uncles for help and advice or are there groups or organisations that can help that they can turn to? Job Kigozi: Some relatives can help but not like organisations. In Uganda we have the organisation of UWESO, Uganda's main effort to support orphans. This can help you more than the relatives because if you lose your parents some of our relatives are more interested in the property but not in you, the orphan, so that is why we face a lack of love, care and attention. Q66 John Barrett: Thank you very much, Job. My last question is, it is very important to have good food and good nutrition. Could you let me and my parliamentary colleagues know what sort of food you would eat in an average day. What would you have for breakfast or for lunch or for a meal in the evening? Job Kigozi: We get food but it is not as balanced as I would wish to be eating. If you lose your parents, who can afford enough food for you to have breakfast, lunch and supper? If you have a relative you are living in an extended family, there are more people living there, they cannot show you love like your parents used to show you and that leads to poor nutrition because the family does not have enough money to support you. In Uganda you can have one meal a day, which is not good for me as a child, that is why we face the problem of poor nutrition. John Barrett: Thank you very much, Job. Chairman: Thank you very much Job. My other friend, who is also called John, is going to ask Jamalie some questions. Q67 Mr Battle: Hello Jamalie. Jamalie Toto: Hello. Q68 Mr Battle: Jamalie, I think you wanted to talk with us about work and money and getting involved in crime even. Can I ask you a general question? Where would orphans get the money, the means to buy food or to pay for things? What is the position as you see it? Jamalie Toto: If you are an orphan and your parents die you lack financial support. The financial support means you do not have money to buy work clothes, yet you are renting and you do not have money to pay rent, you do not have money to buy food and yet you have your young sisters and brothers. You become the father of the house. The solution is that you go and look for jobs which can bring you an income, like portering. For example, I had a friend who was alone and scared, the parents were HIV positive and then they died. He had two sisters and one brother, so he faced a harsh life and did not have any support. He tried to look for jobs which could bring him an income. He went to the builders and started portering. At that age he was getting 1,000 every week, which is too bad. Q69 Mr Battle: What about your situation? Have you done portering? Have you been portering? Jamalie Toto: No, I have never been portering. I am a money collector for a cinema house. Q70 Mr Battle: Do they pay you very bad money? Jamalie Toto: It is a bad situation. Q71 Mr Battle: How many hours do you work at the cinema house? Jamalie Toto: 24 hours a week. Q72 Mr Battle: Really. Do you go to school? Jamalie Toto: I used to go but now I am not going. Q73 Mr Battle: Why? Jamalie Toto: I am lacking fees. Q74 Mr Battle: Because you have not got the money for the fees. Okay. One of the things you asked to talk about was crime. If people do not have money, what do they do? Jamalie Toto: If people do not have money, people look for jobs and if they lack jobs they plan other ways of getting the money illegally and they have to steal and stealing is a crime. Q75 Mr Battle: Is it easy to steal? Jamalie Toto: They steal the neighbours' shoes. If you leave your shoes outside, when you come back you do not find anything. Q76 Mr Battle: That was very helpful. Thank you very much. Jamalie Toto: Thank you. Chairman: My friend, Chris, is going to ask Prossy some questions. Q77 Chris McCafferty: Hello, Prossy, can you hear me? Prossy Nampeera: Hello. Q78 Chris McCafferty: You have mentioned that you would like to talk about lost property, exploitation and abuse, so I have some questions that I would like to ask you. The first one is what happens to your home, or land, or animals when you lose your parents? Is there anyone who helps you look after your possessions, such as your relatives or family friends or someone from the village? Prossy Nampeera: Thank you. When you lose your parents, for example, here in Uganda, when your parents die, you have nobody to look after your property. The relatives who are left alive are going to come in and take away the property which is left for the orphans. If property is left for an orphan it is taken by these relatives because these relatives are not interested in orphans but they are interested in the property. It is too bad for us. For example, you have lost your parents and they are gone and you are left with the property but you cannot think you are going to sell this property that is left behind for you and get some support because when the relatives come in they take away the property left for the orphans. For that purposes, we need some organisations to come in so that they give support and protection to the property left behind for the orphans. Q79 Chris McCafferty: Thank you. You have also mentioned exploitation and abuse, so you must feel very, very sad and very lost when you lose the love and protection of your parents, and we understand that. How do you support yourselves? Young women in particular in many countries are vulnerable to being offered help by older men or offered marriage by older men which they might not want. Does that happen to young women in Uganda? Prossy Nampeera: Yes, it happens. If we lose our parents, we children feel very miserable, we have no support. In terms of getting support, there are older men who are HIV positive who will give some support for something. For example, they can pay for a term's school fees but the time is going to come when they say "Unless you become my wife, you are not going to continue with school". If that man is HIV positive, it is not good for us to be wives of those widowers if we want to be the future generation, for example be the future parliamentarians, as you are the parliamentarians of the UK, which is not good for us. We should not agree just to become their wives; we should get some support to stop that happening in Uganda. Organisations should come in in other ways, not the widowers coming in or the widows coming in but organisations coming in in that case. In terms of abuse, when you have lost your parents and you are left an orphan, these people in the community treat you as if you are the worker of the community, you are going to be involved in manual work. When you do that manual work you are not paid, or when you are paid you are paid less because you cannot have a voice for yourself and they will pay you a little salary and overwork you. This is not good. Remember, you have lost your parents at an early age. For example, my friend, Isaac, who is here, is 11 years old. If he lost his parents at that early age he would be involved in doing that manual work whereby he is doing building. Building is very difficult, they pay you a little salary, yet you are very young. That situation is very bad for us. Thank you. Q80 Chris McCafferty: I have one more question which is along the same lines really. Are young women subjected to sexual abuse by friends or relatives who have promised to look after you, people who you think will support and help you? Prossy Nampeera: I cannot understand you. Q81 Chris McCafferty: Do other people in the community, men, older men perhaps, subject young women to sexual abuse and exploitation? Could it be friends or relatives who have promised to look after you who then do not look after you but make use of you and abuse you? Does that happen? Prossy Nampeera: In terms of sexual abuse and defilement, when we lose our parents the relatives of our parents promise our parents before they die that they will take responsibility for the orphans but after the death of the parents they really neglect you, they treat you as if you were something bad to them. They are interested in the property, they are not going to treat you as somebody else. For example, we have a story here where there was a boy and a girl, they lost their father and their mother, the girl was 13 years and the boy was 11 years. The relatives promised the parents that they would take the responsibility for them after the death of their parents. The parents died but the relatives never did any work they promised, they just neglected these children. The girl is the head of the household. Remember, she is 13 years old and she is the head of the family. How can that girl, who is 13 years, become the head of the household? The girl was the head of the family who would take responsibility for the young child. Their uncle, who was their relative, was a drunkard. The uncle would crowd around the home with his friends and they took a lot of alcohol. In terms of taking the alcohol, the friend of the uncle went into the girl's house and the girl's house had no locks on the doors. He entered the girl's house and the friend of the uncle, who was HIV positive, defiled or raped this girl who is 13 years old and an HIV orphan. He defiled the girl, the girl got pregnant and he was HIV positive. These relatives are not useful to us. Organisations could be better than relatives because they are interested in the property left by the deceased rather than taking responsibility for the orphans. That would not be good for us. This is the story of how they defiled a girl, the girl got pregnant and she was HIV positive after the testing, which was not good for her because she was too young. Chris McCafferty: Thank you very much, Prossy. I hope that you become a parliamentarian because I think that you would make a very good one and we need more women in politics. Chairman: My friend, Quentin, is going to ask Agatha some questions now. Q82 Mr Davies: Hello, Agatha. Have you lost both your parents? Agatha Nakakembo: Yes. Q83 Mr Davies: How old were you when that happened? Agatha Nakakembo: I lost both of them. My mum died when I was in P6 and my father died when I was in Senior 4, March 6. Q84 Mr Davies: We all feel for your tragedy. Can you tell us how your life has changed? For example, did you continue to go to school after that happened? Agatha Nakakembo: I go to school. Q85 Mr Davies: You are going to school now. How long will you continue in education? How long do you want to stay at school, or do you want to study later on? What are your plans? Agatha Nakakembo: I want to continue studying. Q86 Mr Davies: Do you think you will be able to? Agatha Nakakembo: Yes. Q87 Mr Davies: You want to go to college, do you? What do you want to study? Agatha Nakakembo: I want to become a manager of a bank. Q88 Mr Davies: A bank manager, that sounds a very good job. You want to start off working in a bank. Do you think you will manage to overcome the handicap of having lost both your parents so young? Do you think that you will be alright and you will not feel at any disadvantage compared to other students at the college or people starting their careers? Agatha Nakakembo: I feel it is very difficult at school. Q89 Mr Davies: Can you explain why you feel it is more difficult? Agatha Nakakembo: I feel it is very difficult at school because of the way I feel now. When I am in class I do not feel so attentive because on my mind I always think about my parents that I lost and because I do not have them in my life still I feel very sad about that. Q90 Mr Davies: I hope you achieve your ambition to work in a bank and become a manager. I am sure your parents would have been delighted to think that you will achieve that ambition. Very good luck to you. Agatha Nakakembo: Thank you. Q91 Chairman: I have some questions I would like to ask Isaac. Can you just remind us how old you are? Isaac Tumwesigye: 11 years old. Q92 Chairman: Just help us on this: who will prepare your meal today? Who will feed you today? Isaac Tumwesigye: My mother. Q93 Chairman: Your mother is still alive, is she? Isaac Tumwesigye: Yes, my mother is still alive. Q94 Chairman: Is your mother able to pay your school fees? Isaac Tumwesigye: Yes. I am studying at primary school, primary school is free. Q95 Chairman: Does your mum go to work? Isaac Tumwesigye: No. Q96 Chairman: Thank you very much, Isaac. Could I ask Fiona a couple of questions now. Who is going to look after you today? Who prepares your meals? Fiona Nakawesi: My mother. Q97 Chairman: Have you finished at primary school yet? Fiona Nakawesi: Yes. Q98 Chairman: Are you in secondary school? Fiona Nakawesi: Yes. Q99 Chairman: Is your mother able to pay your school fees? Fiona Nakawesi: Yes. Q100 Chairman: Tell me a little bit about your involvement with Plan. How did all of you come to know about Plan International? Ronald Nsubuga: In our division we have some zones and these zones are grouped so we have a chairman of zone one, two and others. These Plan members use the chairmen and secretaries in our zones. The chairman went family by family to these orphans, especially families in which there are most orphans, and they wrote our names down. For example, they came to my place and my guardian gave my name, Ronald, and other names and they said that Plan would help those orphans. First of all, we first thought it was fun, that these guys were joking, but we realised that it was true so we started to be members of Plan. Job Kigozi: I knew Plan, they came looking for people to support, like orphans, and the people who, like me, are not orphans but my family cannot afford my school fees. My father does not have enough money to support me and my mother is not working, so Plan came in and I was supported. I finished my primary school and now I am in secondary school. Q101 Chairman: That is very helpful. How long have all of you known each other? You have very kindly helped us but have you only worked together as a group for this project or have you known each other for a long time? Ronald Nsubuga: When the term was ending Plan organised some seminars and other occasions, such as when the children were at speech days or children had completed their exams, Plan awarded gifts to all those who had first, second and third positions. All of us come from the same zone or the same parish. We have tried to work together since all of us know each other here. Q102 Chairman: Today you are talking to us and we are Members of Parliament and hopefully we can influence our government. Do you ever have the opportunity of talking to adults, decision-makers, Members of Parliament, teachers in Uganda about your problems, your hopes and fears? Ronald Nsubuga: Job will talk first. Job Kigozi: We do that with our parents, teachers and some people in the community. We talk to adults but they do not make the information known to the people in the Government of Uganda which means that we do not have a voice and that is why I am happy because I have got this opportunity to speak to you directly. Q103 Chairman: Thank you. Would anyone else like to comment? Ronald, can I ask you another question? Ronald Nsubuga: Yes. Q104 Chairman: In Uganda there are lots of posters that say "A, B, C. Abstain, be faithful or use condoms". Do you think they have an effect? Do people understand what they mean? Ronald Nsubuga: Yes, it is possible. If a person is told the meaning of those words, what abstain means, what B means, be faithful or use condoms, some people can learn those things. Condoms are at low prices and if a person is not faithful they can use them but a person cannot abstain from sex. If he does not use a condom he will not be faithful because they fear, "If I say I have AIDS first of all you will start teasing me, discriminate against me, even the whole community will know I am an HIV infected person", so people are not faithful. Q105 Chairman: In Uganda, how easy is it to get tested for your status, for adults to get tested for their HIV status? Ronald Nsubuga: In some hospitals it is free; in some but not all. In other pharmacists and big hospitals they have to charge a person. To take an example, it is 5,000 to 6,000 Ugandan shillings or sometimes 10,000 shillings. A person who cannot afford that money cannot be tested. Q106 Chairman: How much do people earn a week in Uganda? How much does an average person earn, to give us some idea of how expensive things are? Ronald Nsubuga: It depends on the hours of the job the person does. If a person is not educated he can be doing a job which requires him to be paid about one million shillings but he will be given 10,000 since he says he has no mathematics or English, which is another problem. Over here a person must be educated in order to be given that. Some people have forged documents when he or she is applying for the job. A person who is not educated will not be given the amount which he or she is supposed to be paid, he will be cheated. Q107 Chairman: If you do not finish school, if you do not get certificates, then you are always disadvantaged by the amount you are paid, is that what you are saying? Ronald Nsubuga: Yes. Q108 Chairman: Ronald, thank you very, very much. Is there anything else that you or your team would like to say to us that you have not yet said? Is there anything that we have not asked you about that you would like to tell us about? I think we have covered quite a lot of areas and we are very grateful to you. Is there anything that you or any member of your team would like to add? Ronald Nsubuga: We have also set up some questions. The first question is we would like to know why you are interested in talking to us. Q109 Chairman: The reason why we are interested in talking to you is because we want to have a better understanding of what is happening to those children in Uganda and elsewhere who have either lost their mothers or their fathers, or both mothers and fathers, through HIV/AIDS. You have been very, very helpful in helping us to have a better understanding of that today. Ronald Nsubuga: Thank you very much. The next question that will assist us is from Job. Job Kigozi: In Uganda most people have the saying that AIDS has no cure. As we are the future generation, what would be the best solution for us not to be infected? Q110 Chairman: I think that was why I was asking Ronald those questions about what health education you are receiving in school and elsewhere. I think Ronald was saying that it is very difficult to have a policy which is just about abstaining. There is probably quite a lot in terms of health education about being faithful or using condoms and protection, is there not? In your schools, do people talk about these issues? Do teachers talk to you about health education? Ronald Nsubuga: Teachers tell us in some schools but their knowledge is mostly acquired through seminars which organisations or centres organise. There is another question from Fiona, or a supplement. Q111 Chairman: Okay, Ronald, that is great. Chris is going to answer Fiona's questions, so if Fiona would like to ask her question. Ronald Nsubuga: Not Fiona, Prossy has a supplement to the question which you asked. Prossy Nampeera: What I want to say is that message is brought to schools and at a community level but on a community basis it is not very common that every person is aware of that knowledge. I can think of an example in our community. There was a man who was HIV positive but because of his ignorance he used to go on spreading the HIV disease to everybody. He made a cinema hall whereby he would tell the girls "You can come and watch in the cinema hall free of charge", but he started raping the girls inside the cinema hall, those girls he called in to watch free of charge. If education was brought nearer to the community level or to the parish level it would have been better for those people to take care of that disease and they should be aware of how to protect themselves so the future generation do not get affected by that issue. In schools it has come to the school level but at the community level it is not common, so those people also need to have it at the community level and on a parish basis. Chairman: Ronald, my friend, Chris, would like to ask Agatha another question. Q112 Chris McCafferty: Earlier when I was speaking to Prossy I asked her some difficult questions about young women being forced to marry older men who may be HIV positive and also about young women who are abused or raped or defiled by people who really should be looking after them and helping them. I wondered if you would like to comment on that. Would you agree with your friend, Prossy, that these things happen to young women? Do you know of such things? Agatha Nakakembo: Yes, it happens to most of the women. If your husband dies and the person who is a brother to your husband or uncle comes to help you, he can say "You know if you need support from me, I have to rape you first so you may get what you want". Q113 Chairman: Agatha, thank you very much. Ronald, were there any other questions you wanted to ask us? Ronald Nsubuga: No. Chairman: Ronald, can we just say thank you very, very much to your and your colleagues for having spent so much time to prepare us. Everything you have said this afternoon will appear in the proceedings of our Parliament and be shared with every Member of our UK Parliament. We will make sure that, through Plan International, you get to see a copy. Ronald, Isaac, Agatha, Jamalie, Job, Prossy, Paul and Fiona, thank you all very, very much for having been with us today. |