Examination of Witness (Questions 240-259)
6 JULY 2004
RT HON
TONY BLAIR
MP
Q240 Mr Leigh: If I could just follow
on from what Sir George was putting to you (I think we would all
like to help you out on this), your place in history is secure,
you have freed this nation from a gangster regime, and I think
you have moved on quite considerably this morning, and I think
you have been very reasonable. You said last year—it is
in Hansard and George has mentioned it—"My view is
that I am very confident they will find the evidence that such
programmes existed." What you have now said today, a year
later, is, "We may not find them." I think what people
are trying to say to you and what people want from you is some
acknowledgement that all that was said to them, and what you said
to them, about the reasons for going to war a year ago, which
was basically that this chap had weapons of mass destruction and
posed a threat to the region and to us, was wrong. At some stage
can you not just find it in yourself to accept that we went to
war for the wrong reasons, and say "I'm sorry about this
but I still defend the war, I can defend the war, because we got
rid of this gangster regime"?
Mr Blair: I think that is a very
reasonable way of putting the point to me, if I can say it, but
let me just say this to you: obviously, I do believe it is good
that we have got rid of Saddam Hussein and he was a tyrant and
we can agree on that. However, I do not actually believe that
he was not a threat in respect of weapons of mass destruction.
All I am saying is there is no point in me sitting here and saying,
a year on and we have not found these weapons, that I am going
to say to you exactly the same as I said a year ago. As I said
recently, I have to accept the fact that we have not found them.
On the other hand, what we have found is very clear evidence of
strategic intent and capability and a desire to carry on developing
these weapons. Whether they were hidden, or removed, or destroyed
even, the plain fact is he was undoubtedly in breach of United
Nations resolutions. So even if it is a threat that is different
in the sense that the breaches of United Nations resolutions in
respect of WMD are the breaches that the Iraq Survey Group has
outlined, or David Kaye outlined, a short time ago, I still believe
it was justified in those terms as well, although I agree, obviously,
for a lot of people they will say "Saddam Hussein is an evil
person. You got rid of an evil person, that is fine". The
basis upon which we went to war was the basis of enforcing United
Nations resolutions in respect of WMD.
Q241 Mr Leigh: I think we cannot take
that issue forward any further. At some stage we just have to
draw a line underneath it, and we have to accept, quite frankly,
that the whole world knows that the weapons of mass destruction
are not there. We will pass on because I do not think we can pursue
that any more. The major impetus behind this war, also, was—and
I think you were sold this line by the President of the United
States—that this was part of a war on terror, and dealing
with a war on terror is about a Middle East settlement. The President
has had some extremely kind things to say about you. He said,
in the White House, on 16 April 2004, "In all these efforts
the American people know that we have no more valuable friend
than Prime Minister Tony Blair. As we like to say in Crawford,
`He is a stand-up sort of guy'". You yourself have replicated
that by saying "I would like to pay tribute to the President's
leadership in the Middle East". Has he not let you down?
What we want to ask is where is your influence on this? The fact
is you put all your trust in President Bush; he has said "I
will deliver a Roadmap" but where is the progress? Has he
delivered his side of the bargain to you, given all the political
capital that you have expended on his behalf?
Mr Blair: First of all, I do not
regard it as having expanded political capital on his behalf;
I happen to think that the security threat we face today is the
threat of a new form of global terrorism combined with repressive
unstable states that proliferate or engage in chemical, biological
and nuclear weapons development. That is what I think the security
threat is.
Q242 Mr Leigh: We all accept that, but
I am asking about the Middle East settlement.
Mr Blair: I am going to come to
the Middle East settlement. The point is when you put to me that
somehow my desire is to expend my political capital so that he
calls me a "stand-up guy"—that is not what it
is about for me. This is about the security of this country and
of the wider world, and I passionately believe that this is the
security threat we face. I simply say to you, even on the WMD
front, I do not believe without Iraq we would have got the progress
on Libya, on AQ Khan, on Iran or on North Korea. So let us be
quite clear, this is not an issue that is just to do with the
relationship between Britain and America. I can assure you, if
I did not believe that the security of this country was enhanced
by taking the action in Iraq I would not have done it, irrespective
of how many compliments the President gave me.
Q243 Mr Leigh: Was there a quid pro
quo?
Mr Blair: The quid pro quo
notion is somehow this idea that I did something we did not really
want to do, but actually we got a quid pro quo from it.
All I am saying to you is that is not the way it is. However,
on the Middle East and the Roadmap, this is the first time the
administration, any administration, has committed itself to a
two-state solution. The Roadmap was agreed and agreed by everybody.
It is true we have not made the progress that we wish to make.
We have to go back and redouble our efforts on that again. That
is why the Quartet is trying to work out with the Palestinian
Authority at the moment a security, an economic and a political
plan for the development of the Palestinian Authority in circumstances
where the Israelis disengage from Gaza and parts of the West Bank.
I am working as hard as I have ever worked to try and get this
process back on track again, but it does require a security plan
that does not simply give the Palestinians the ability to function
effectively but gives the Israelis some protection against terrorism
that kills their people. So the suggestion that somehow the Americans
simply shrug their shoulders and do not care about this I do not
think is right, but we need to have a viable solution to take
this forward. That is my view.
Q244 Mr Leigh: Has he been entirely helpful
to you? "On these occasions", you have said, "we
support the Americans" (I paraphrase) "not because they
are powerful; we share their values". All right, we share
their values, but do we, Prime Minister, share their decisions?
Two days before your summit with President Bush at Crawford, he
cut this peace settlement off at the knees by accepting Prime
Minister Sharon's policy to actually not dismantle settlements
in the West Bank. That was not very helpful to you, was it? Where
was your influence at that stage?
Mr Blair: First of all, he made
it clear, and I made it clear at the press conference, these are
issues of final status negotiation, but I think everyone recognises,
for example, in respect of the refugee thing, which is the thing
that he was most criticised for, that you are going to have to
find some sort of accommodation there. It has got to be done in
the final status negotiations. The important point that I was
making at that time, and I return to it now, is that however much
people may criticise the motives of the Israeli Government, if
you do get disengagement from the Gaza, where a third of the Palestinians
actually live, and parts of the West Bank, then that is actually
a step forward. If they dismantle the 7,000 settlers in the Gaza
that will be the first time that has happened ever, I think, since
the creation of the state of Israel. All I am saying is that there
is an opportunity now to take this forward as a result of what
we have done. We have got the plans from the Quartet, which as
you know is the United States, Russia, the European Union and
the United Nations, to try and develop the security plan, and
I hope come the autumn we can move this forward again. I agree,
of course, it is a major part of the conversation we have with
the United States the entire time. It is extremely important.
I want to emphasis to you again, my view of the relationship between
this country and the United States is not one in which, as it
were, we go along with them and what they want to do and every
so often they throw us a scrap. That is not my view of it. That
is the parody of the view of the relationship—
Q245 Mr Leigh: What have they thrown
you? What has he delivered to you on Israel? We are all on the
same side on this. We know that peace depends on Bush putting
pressure on Israel—you say that, I say that, we all say
that—so what has he delivered to you?
Mr Blair: There are two things
that this administration has actually come up with, but I do not
say it is delivered to me because it is actually what he believes.
One is: to commit himself to an independent, viable Palestinian
state. No other American President has ever committed themselves
to that. Secondly, to ensure that the Roadmap, which actually
was not supported by people originally, is supported. I am telling
you that the problem at the moment in the Middle East, and we
have got to be absolutely blunt about this, is that until you
get a proper security plan on the Palestinian side that gives
the Palestinians the ability (and the international community
to back them up in this) to say "We are employing 100% efforts
in stopping the terrorism" the Israelis will carry on making
efforts to try and prevent the terrorists getting through. I think,
if you look at the relationship between this country and America
since September 11—and, in particular, whatever the difficulties,
we know in the end the Iraqi action was taken without the second
UN resolution, but for example in the transfer of full sovereignty
to the Iraqi Government recently, which I think has put this thing
in a different place, I think it has given us the chance really
to make progress in Iraq now—all I can say to you is I do
not think this country should ever let itself be ashamed of its
relationship with the United States of America, or believe that
Britain is America's poodle—all this stuff. Let the people
say whatever they like about it, in the end I believe it is an
important relationship that delivers for us because we share their
values and because we share their view that the best security
we ultimately have is the spread of freedom, democracy and justice
throughout the world, and that is what we are trying to do. Actually,
that is what we are trying to do for the Palestinians as well.
Q246 Donald Anderson: Not ashamed, certainly
the relationship is very important, but President Bush made a
specific pledge in Belfast last year. He said he was willing to
expend the same amount of energy on the Middle East as you did
on the Northern Ireland peace process. That manifestly is not
happening.
Mr Blair: Donald, subsequent to
that he then saw the key parties and the key players and they
then put together the agreement for the Roadmap, as the Roadmap
is the way forward. That was a fight and a struggle but people
accepted it in the end. As I say, it is a major part of the discussion
that we have with President Bush the entire time. If the Quartet
is able to agree the security, economic and political plan for
the Palestinians, and if the Americans do ensure that the Israelis
press ahead with their disengagement plans—and that is what
they say and I believe that they will do—there is the chance
for the international community to help the beginnings of that
viable Palestinian state.
Q247 Donald Anderson: Of course there
is the chance, but you have repeated a number of "ifs"
and conditions. Can you seriously say that the Bush administration
has its feet on the pedal now and is taking seriously and with
great vigour the peace process in the Middle East?
Mr Blair: All I can tell you is
that, for example, in our recent bilateral at the NATO summit,
I would say that half the time was spent on the Palestinian/Israeli
issue. For the engagement to happen you must have partners willing
to make the engagement work, both on the Israeli and Palestinian
side. That is what we are working very hard with the United States
to see. I do not know whether I said this to you last time but
my belief is that a very large point of conflict that overshadows
everything in the international community arises out of this Israeli/Palestinian
conflict.
Q248 Donald Anderson: Do you accept that
we in the UK are paying a very high price in the Middle East because
of our very close association with American policy on this issue?
Mr Blair: I am not sure about
that. It depends who you talk to in the Middle East, but I think
to be seen as the closest ally of America is not much of a disadvantage
anywhere in the world, in my view, when you actually get down
to it. I think an awful lot will depend, however, on whether we
do indeed make progress on this issue. I accept that, and that
is what I am working for constantly.
Q249 Donald Anderson: We know that a
Cabinet sub-committee was set up last October specifically to
look at UK/US relations. Was that because of concern by your colleagues
that we were, perhaps, becoming too closely linked?
Mr Blair: I think, on the contrary,
it was how do we make the best use of the closeness that there
is? There is a whole series of things that we take forward to
the Americans about this. This is an issue upon which everyone
will have their different views. My belief is that Britain's role
in the world today has got two big parts to it: it is membership
of the European Union and it is alliance with the United States
of America. I think we should keep both, build on both and work
both to our own advantage.
Q250 Donald Anderson: Are we, perhaps,
harming our links with the European Union by being seen too much
as aligned with the US?
Mr Blair: There again I do not
find that when I am in Europe; I actually find there are many
countries, particularly the new countries which have just come
into the European Union, that welcome our relationship with America.
They support the relationship with America. OK, there are some
countries (let us not go into details) who take a different point
of view, but I just want to say this to you about the relationship
with America: I am not daft about the politics of it, and I can
see—particularly within my own political family—it
is a problem from time to time, is it not, and there is no point
in disputing that, but the reason why I will not give up—on
the contrary I will advocate it—is because I think it is
so important for this country. The thing I find most bizarre,
at the moment, is you have got a situation where—say what
you like about America—in Afghanistan and Iraq they are
trying to help countries that were completely corrupted, failed
states to freedom and democracy. What is wrong with that?
Q251 Donald Anderson: Can I just divert
back to Ian Gibson's point? I think you said to Ian that climate
change was a key part of our dialogue with the United States.
Mr Blair: It is, yes.
Q252 Donald Anderson: Why was Kyoto specifically
excluded from the remit of the Cabinet committee set up on UK/US
relations?
Mr Blair: Because we already deal
with the issues to do with Kyoto. There is an actual working relationship
between Margaret Beckett and her opposite number in the US, and
what we are trying to do—and this is why we are doing this
in the context of the G8 Presidency—is take this forward
and try and get the Americans into a different position. I am
not pretending I have persuaded them on Kyoto because I have not.
Q253 Donald Anderson: Prime Minister,
I would like to turn finally to Iraq. We are in a transition phase,
it could go either way and it is vitally important that we win
through. The elections are now, hopefully, not later than January
and then in November the following year. The UN has the specific
responsibility for doing it. They will not go in without force
protection. Who is going to provide the forces?
Mr Blair: That is under discussion
with the UN at the moment. I think we will be able to resolve
that. Frankly, I think, the more difficult thing for the UN is
how they move about around the country.
Q254 Donald Anderson: They will need
protection.
Mr Blair: Yes, they will need
protection.
Q255 Donald Anderson: Who is going to
protect them?
Mr Blair: That is something we
are discussing with them.
Q256 Donald Anderson: That will mean
more troops?
Mr Blair: I do not know that it
will mean more British troops but it will need troops—
Q257 Donald Anderson: It could be argued
that we give a disproportionate weight—certainly the US
provide 85% of the troops, we provide 10%. Who else is prepared
to provide troops?
Mr Blair: There are about 30 countries
in Iraq—
Q258 Donald Anderson: Indeed, in the
5%.
Mr Blair: I think it is more than
5% actually.
Q259 Donald Anderson: Who else is prepared
to provide troops?
Mr Blair: The countries that are
providing troops there at the moment, and there may be other countries
that come in, we simply do not know at the moment. The most important
thing for the UN is to get the highest quality protection.
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