Examination of Witness (Questions 40-59)
MR GAVIN ST JOHN WILDERS, Sworn: Examined by MR LEWIS
16 JUNE 2004
40. MR LEWIS: This does not mean that the
area is unpopular for street vendors, does it?
(Mr Wilders) No,
certainly not. There are a large number of itinerant traders within
the area. It is probably on an annual basis our highest activity
within Medway. What we are finding is that because of the powers
that are granted under the Pedlars Act most of the traders down
there now have a pedlar's certificate. In the time we have been
trying to increase enforcement what we have found is that the
people who did not have a pedlar's certificate and who were being
moved on are now getting certification and they are being advised
by existing pedlars about how to get certification and how to
play the game as far as the Pedlars Act is concerned.
41. MR LEWIS: What sort of things do
they sell?
(Mr Wilders) The
traders mainly sell counterfeit goods, sports and fashion clothing,
toys and DVDs. They are also what we would call lower quality
goods. We have people setting up small stalls, making wire ornaments
and items of that nature. We also have fast food stores down the
High Street that operate from barrows.
42. MR LEWIS: If you look at the photographs
in your bundle, I believe all four photographs were taken in Chatham
High Street on Saturday.
(Mr Wilders) Yes.
43. MR LEWIS: Would you like to describe
to the Committee what happened in the case which I briefly mentioned
in my opening address involving the hotdog seller and burger
seller?
(Mr Wilders) Certainly.
Under the current legislation we are mainly offering a policing
role in trying to move people on. We tried to take a prosecution
against one of the fast food vendors in the High Street, but when
we took it to the Magistrates' Court the chair of the bench passed
the judgment that under the provisions of the Pedlars Act it was
inappropriate for the vender to be moving whilst preparing his
goods, and the definition of preparing his goods that was offered
at that time was if he was actually turning his goods as in cooking
his burgers. What happens now is the vendor stays in a stationary
position and flips burgers continually even though they are cooked
because he knows that as long as he is complying with the judgment
that we are trying to get a prosecution against we have very little
ability to enforce against him.
44. MR LEWIS: So in effect the High
Court authorities, which one might say the magistrates perhaps
should have followed, say that a person who enjoys a pedlar's
certificate should be trading while he moves, not moving to his
trade, but what the Magistrates' Court decided in this case was
that it was impossible for this chap to move while he traded because
he had to flip his burgers continually and it would be dangerous
or unhygienic for him to do that while he was pushing his barrow
around, and so they said he could stay stationary for the whole
period and escape the Council's prosecution. That leaves the Council
in a very difficult position because whilst it could have taken
the matter up to the High Court, it chose not to because it was
bringing this legislation before Parliament and it wished to pursue
that avenue first. Whilst this legislation is still going through
Parliament the Council has chosen not to prosecute this chap again
because obviously the threat is there that the same decision will
be reached next time too.
45. CHAIRMAN: Presumably there were
not many hotdog stalls around in 1871, that is part of the
problem.
46. MR LEWIS: If you read London
Labour and the London Poor, which is a classic exposition
of street trading activity in Victorian times, there were equivalents
of hotdog traders certainly, oyster sellers and everybody
else crowded the streets of London and one suspects that some
of them utilised the Pedlars Act.
47. CHAIRMAN: That meant you were faced
with a difficult decision because if you had not been bringing
this legislation forward then you might have taken steps to overturn
that judgement.
48. MR LEWIS: That is a fair comment.
49. CHAIRMAN: You are hoping that will
be taken care of by what you are seeking to do.
(Mr Wilders) Indeed.
Under this legislation, if it were passed, there would be no question
of a pedlar's certificate being brought out at all.
50. CHAIRMAN: Does that mean there is
a danger of a rash of hotdog sellers using that as a precedent
then?
51. MR LEWIS: I think that is probably
fair to say. If you look at the photographs, there you see two
examples of hotdog sellers in Chatham High Street who the
Council are not prosecuting simply because of this decision from
one of the local magistrates. Of course, the make up of the magistrates
changes from daytoday and a different Magistrates'
Court might give a different decision, but that in itself explains
more the difficulties of the Council in deciding what to do in
these cases because it is a bit of a lottery, is it not?
(Mr Wilders) Yes.
52. MR LEWIS: It is also interesting
to note in respect of this case that the defendant himself has
a pedlar's certificate, I believe.
(Mr Wilders) He
does, yes.
53. MR LEWIS: What address does he give
on it?
(Mr Wilders) We
had two addresses, neither within our borough. The original certificate
gave an address in Coventry and the latest certificate gives an
address in Nottingham.
54. MR LEWIS: Where does he live?
(Mr Wilders) He
resides in our borough.
55. MR LEWIS: In Gillingham?
(Mr Wilders) Yes.
56. MR LEWIS: This also brings to your
attention a weakness in the Pedlars Act legislation. Whilst I
am sure the police make every effort they can to ensure that all
applications are legitimate, they are meant to ensure that the
person applying has been living in their area for one month prior
to the application being granted. The pedlar's certificate was
granted in Nottinghamshire, was it not, by the Nottinghamshire
constabulary despite the fact that the defendant lives in Gillingham?
(Mr Wilders) Yes.
57. CHAIRMAN: You have told us the conditions
the police are supposed to investigate before they issue these
certificates. From what you are telling us this afternoon, they
are just not doing that.
58. MR LEWIS: In this particular case
it seems not if the certificate was issued by the Nottinghamshire
constabulary.
59. SIR ROBERT SMITH: Is there any means,
if you think someone has been erroneously given a pedlar's certificate,
of getting it revoked or challenged?
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