Examination of Witness by the Committee
(Questions 100-119)
MR GAVIN WILDERS
16 JUNE 2004
100. MR BAILEY: That is really what I was
getting at. A seizure is not a substitute for prosecution?
101. MR LEWIS: No, and on conviction
the goods can be forfeited by the court, or on acquittal there
can be an order that they should be returned and compensation
paid.
102. MR BAILEY: that leads me to the
other question. Why, if you can prosecute do you need the seizure
provisions? Is it just an extra penalty over and above those that
would be arising from the court procedures?
(Mr Wilders) I
think the easiest way of explaining that is to quote an occurrence
that happens in Rochester regularly on a Friday and Saturday night.
We have a burger van down there and the owner of that burger van
freely admits that his profits on a nightly basis are in excess
of £3,000 and he says to us, "You can prosecute me as
many times as you want because I make more money out of it a night
than I will have in fines if I get found guilty", so if we
attempt to prosecute we do not remove the problem from the area.
103. MR LEWIS: Under the City of Westminster
Act the way that council has used it is that they seize vans.
104. MR BAILEY: In effect it is a substitute
for an effective fining regime.
105. MR LEWIS: Yes. The £1,000,
as I said, is the maximum fine. If you have got a nightly profit
and the turnover is £3,000 and you are given a £250
fine, which can be higher if you are a persistent offender, then
it can be seen to be an occupational hazard.
(Mr Wilders) But
this is a van that is set up outside one of our large night clubs
in the Rochester city centre. It has a regular clientele and that
is the advice that the owner of that stall gave us.
106. CHAIRMAN: If he were legitimate
you would not let him have a stall there?
(Mr Wilders) We
would not allow trading there, no.
107. CHAIRMAN: He has found a plum pitch
and is prepared to pay the fine?
(Mr Wilders) Yes.
108. SIR ROBERT SMITH: His fine is effectively
his fee for the site?
(Mr Wilders) Yes,
if he gets one.
109. SIR ROBERT SMITH: And also is there
any other element to the seizure of the possibility of people
not actually being traceable to pay the fines? Do you have a problem
enforcing the fines?
(Mr Wilders) Again,
yes. If you get a fine you have still got to try and recover the
money and enforce that. What we find, certainly with the pedlars,
is that the only thing we have to go on is the address that is
on the pedlar's certificate and, looking through the list that
we have got, most of those addresses are outside of our area.
110. MR LEWIS: I think I am right in
saying that enforcement of fines is a matter for the court, not
the local authority, despite the fact that it is the local authority
taking out the prosecutions. The magistrates court enforces the
fines.
(Mr Wilders) We
have to deal with the recovery of costs.
111. MR LEWIS: You have to deal with
the recovery of your prosecution costs, do you?
(Mr Wilders) Yes.
112. SIR ROBERT SMITH: Given the piecemeal
approach that is happening across the country that you have cited
and the wider concerns, has the council heard of any new developments
to see if the government are minded to amend the legislation?
(Mr Wilders) I
have not got any information on that.
113. MR LEWIS: I might be able to help
a little bit on that. I was the agent for Westminster City Council
when they promoted their Act. When they promoted their Act they
had a government report against the Bill. I think I am right in
saying that it was not on the principle. What it said was, "Wait
a minute. We are about to launch a review of the pedlars' legislation".
We deposited that Bill in 1996.
114. CHAIRMAN: More a question of priorities,
I think.
115. MR LEWIS: Indeed.
116. CHAIRMAN: We have seen the amendments.
I do not think there is any need to go into details on those.
They are ones that were recommended in the human rights legislation.
I think probably those are all right as far as we are concerned.
We have seen the Minister's comments too. No-one has petitioned
against it?
117. MR LEWIS: That is correct - no
petitions, no government reports.
118. CHAIRMAN: So in essence what you
are saying is that pedlars will still be able to peddle?
119. MR LEWIS: In essence we are saying
that pedlars will be able to peddle door to door.
| 
