Examination of Witnesses (Questions 320
- 339)
TUESDAY 4 NOVEMBER 2003
MR PAT
MAGUIRE
Q320 Chairman: Has the Steele Review
and the imminent prospect of a separated regime, made that concern
of yours better or worse?
Mr Maguire: What has concerned
me is the number of incidents that have taken place against staff
on the outside of the prison. Staff and their families obviously
have been extremely vulnerable. It seemed to be emanating from
the Loyalist section of the community. This appears to have increased
since the Steele Report, for whatever reason I cannot quite understand,
because separation has been granted and yet, for some reason or
other, these attacks on staff, which are totally intolerable,
are continuing.
Q321 Chairman: I really do want to
know your view. As a result of Steele and as a result of the decision
to separate paramilitary prisoners, in your view is that a better
or a worse situation for the safety of your staff and their families?
Mr Maguire: The staff in the integrated
side of the prison in my view will be as safe as they always were.
For the staff who will be working in the separated or segregated
parts of the prison we are putting in place the necessary physical
infrastructure to make it safe. We are putting in place controlled
movement. We are putting in support and training mechanisms so
that they are up to the job. The intention is that the staff will
be as safe as they were.
Q322 Chairman: That is the intention.
You will be well aware that the POA, for example. believe that
their members are at greater risk as a result of the decision
to segregate.
Mr Maguire: I can understand that
sentiment.
Q323 Chairman: And you share it?
Mr Maguire: No. I can understand
the sentiment. What I am trying to do as Governor is to implement
the policy operationally that has been decided outside.
Q324 Chairman: I understand that
and I understand that you have to implement whatever the decision
is. Nevertheless, when you were asked your advice about the safety
of your staff and their families, did you advise that it would
get better or get worse if the decision was taken to go to segregation?
Mr Maguire: I was not asked in
bold terms. What I was asked for were my professional views on
whether separation and segregation should happen, and I am clearly
of the view that I felt that integration and what we were doing
could have continued and provided for the safest system where
prisoners co-operate. Of course, now that this has been granted,
the onus is on myself and the Prison Service to try and make sure
that we stick to this particular line, even though we know it
is going to be a very, very significant challenge to do that.
Q325 Chairman: The Steele Review
amongst other things reported security failures in respect of
certain prisoners such as on their return from workshops that
X-ray and metal detection machines were often turned off. We have
heard of several other lapses in security recorded. What have
you done to put all this right?
Mr Maguire: We have instituted
a review. In fact that included fencing in the yards. For example,
we have put ceilings on the yards to prevent people getting on
to the roof; we have tried to secure the roof as best as possible
in Bush and Roe; we have put additional and better cameras in
the square yards for observation. We were already, prior to Steele,
as management putting in place new search facilities for people
returning from workshops, which included metal arches and metal
arms and proper searches by the standby search team. That was
already going to be in place prior to Steele.
Q326 Chairman: Why was all that not
put in place before?
Mr Maguire: We had different mechanisms
for doing searching.
Q327 Chairman: Was it lack of resources
or was it lack of a perceived need for these security measures?
Mr Maguire: No, it was not a lack
of resources because the resources were there and are there at
this point in time to deal with those people who are returning
from the workshops. As you know, the workshops have not been operating
now for some months, but that work is going ahead.
Q328 Chairman: One of your major
problems is the ease with which drugs find their way into the
prison. One of your most effective deterrents is your drugs dogs,
who I understand have a very large price on their heads because
they are so feared.
Mr Maguire: Yes.
Q329 Chairman: And yet on occasions
you do not use them; you take decisions that you would not use
the dogs. Why do you do that?
Mr Maguire: You will need to clarify
that point. We use the drugs dogs every time there are visits
on.
Q330 Chairman: The POA says that
when there was a Christmas celebration with visitors coming into
the prison, you announced in advance that you would not use the
dogs.
Mr Maguire: They are referring
to an incident, or an occasion not an incident, last Christmas.
Q331 Chairman: And the Christmas
before?
Mr Maguire: I was not Governor
the Christmas before.
Q332 Chairman: No, but that is what
they tell us.
Mr Maguire: I can refer back to
last Christmas. Yes, there was a Christmas party with a small
number of enhanced prisoners and, yes, I did take the decision
that on that particular occasion, not for the visits but because
of the nature of that occasion, I would not employ the drugs dog.
This was a Christmas party to enhance the relationships between
families and the prisoners. Certainly, to begin to employ the
drugs dog on that particular occasion could have destroyed the
whole ethos that we were trying to create.
Q333 Chairman: Had representations
been made to you by the prisoners not to use the dog?
Mr Maguire: No.
Q334 Chairman: Why did you announce
it in advance that you were not going to use the dog?
Mr Maguire: I did not announce
it in advance.
Q335 Chairman: There may be a difference
of opinion on this. We were told that they knew in advance that
the dogs would not be deployed. That allows a sort of free range,
does it not, to come in with the drugs and pass them over to prisoners?
Mr Maguire: They were still going
to be subject to close searches, which included a full search,
because all prisoners would receive a full search if it was decided
that there was a risk or an indication that those people were
actually carrying drugs.
Q336 Chairman: There is always a
risk, is there not?
Mr Maguire: May I also clarify
that even with the very valuable work that the passive drugs dogs
do, drugs do still get into the prison.
Q337 Chairman: About that there is
no doubt. Cannabis was being smoked freely on the roof and shared
between the various paramilitary people who were up there, which
must have caused you a lot of concern, must it not?
Mr Maguire: Any drugs in a closed
institution like a prison obviously cause me concern. We have
a drugs strategy which we try to employ to try and deter and educate
and make people aware of the dangers of using drugs, particularly
in the prison environment.
Q338 Chairman: This is not actually
a question that is relevant to this particular inquiry but to
the one we have just finished. Have you considered any form of
introducing the sort of regime that they have at Hydebank Wood
whereby they have a drugs-free zone, random drugs testing and
people can go there if they want nothing to do with drugs?
Mr Maguire: Yes. We have a drugs-free
wing at Maghaberry which was, until this week when we have had
to put more prisoners in, drugs free viz Erne 5 & 6. That
was a drugs-free zone. The difficulties in establishing a drugs-free
zone, particularly in Maghaberry Prison, because it has come up
time and time again, has been the fear that paramilitaries will
try and use that for their own ends to get segregated conditions,
and so I have had to be very much aware of that and not allow
the strategy to be highjacked for the purposes of the paramilitaries
getting segregation.
Q339 Chairman: We have now seen the
draft compact and, assuming that the final one is not going to
look too unlike that, I think the crunch question, which we did
discuss yesterday but we would like to get on the record, is how
you are going to hold the line. Where is the line and what is
the line? How are you going to avoid going down the slippery slope,
which many people feel you are already on? It is an easy question
Mr Maguire: I wish it were! The
situation with regard to the compact is that this is an attempt,
the first time really ever in the Prison Service, to put conditions
on the regime that prisoners are actually going to live in. With
regard to the compact, we have tried to cover most of the main
areas, as you will see, and the intention is that the compact
is the line. I do fully understand your point that there are going
to be tremendous challenges and pressure put on that compact to
move beyond that by chipping away at the regime, but it is up
to me and my Governors and staff to have the resolve to maintain
that compact as the line to be drawn in the sand. Certainly on
that I have the support of Prison Service Headquarters and indeed
of the Minister.
| 
