Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 360 - 379)

TUESDAY 4 NOVEMBER 2003

MR PAT MAGUIRE

  Q360  Mr Clarke: Can I try to be helpful? I understood that £6 is the standard and £4 is the basic.

  Residential Governor: That is right.

  Q361  Mr Clarke: So within the separated regime when prisoners are on standard with no opportunity to go to enhanced, they would be on £6 a week. This begs the question as to whether or not, within the drawing up of the compact, we are looking at whether or not the cleaning and keeping of the wing is part of a work programme and therefore would justify £6 a week on standard as opposed to £4 a week on basic. Is that a correct assumption?

  Governor of Inmate Services and Activities: You are confused about the actual payment. The payment is actually made up of two parts. There is a basic pay and then there is an attendance allowance to encourage prisoners to participate in up to ten sessions twice per day for a full week.

  Q362  Chairman: Is that ten sessions of work?

  Governor of Inmate Services and Activities: Yes, morning and afternoon, Monday through Friday, and that boosts it up. If you attend work or attend an approved activity for those ten periods, you get the pay at a fuller rate.

  Q363  Chairman: What is the rate?

  Governor of Inmate Services and Activities: It is dependent on the level of the regime.

  Chairman: We do need to know the facts.

  Mr Clarke: It will be published as part of the compact.

  Q364  Chairman: But the compact is for segregated prisoners? What we need really to understand is the difference in the pay allowances, or whatever you call them, that they receive, between those who are working in the integrated regime and those who are not working in the separated regime.

  Mr Maguire: Could I suggest that we provide more detail after the hearing about this?

  Q365  Chairman: I am sure that would be very helpful. Thank you.

  Residential Governor: May I just make one point to clarify something Mr Clarke said? Every prisoner who is on standard has an opportunity to go to enhanced. There is nobody on standard who would have the opportunity.

  Q366  Mr Clarke: Unless they are in the separated?

  Residential Governor: Everyone in integrated is on standard and has the opportunity of going to enhanced.

  Q367  Mr Clarke: Free association in Bush and Roe post-separation: will there be a more favourable environment for separated than integrated or will the free association be at the same level whether or not you are separated or integrated?

  Residential Governor: The intention with the separated prisoners is that they will have the opportunity to associate with other prisoners either in the dining hall or in the exercise yard, and the exercise yard, after the work we have done on it to make sure there is no access to the roof, is not as attractive as the exercise yards elsewhere, and the dining hall is similar to dining halls throughout the prison.

  Q368  Mr Clarke: It is the same if not perhaps a little bit less attractive?

  Residential Governor: Yes.

  Q369  Mr Clarke: I am sorry to ask such detailed questions; it is just that we are trying to get an idea of the new regime. Could you talk about staffing levels on the wings? Are we talking in this instance in terms of the new separated Bush and Roe of one plus five or one plus six?

  Residential Governor: It is not agreed yet.

  Q370  Chairman: It is not agreed between who and whom?

  Residential Governor: It is not agreed between Headquarters and the Union.

  Q371  Chairman: Headquarters are negotiating this, not you?

  Mr Maguire: It is a combination of local management and Prison Service Headquarters, in consultation obviously with the Union. We have not reached a resolution on that yet. There are a number of options.

  Q372  Mr Clarke: Have you put in a recommendation?

  Mr Maguire: Yes, and I think it is true to say that we have had a series of discussions and we are presently looking at trying to fit the staffing levels of the regime together. We have just learnt that there are further discussions taking place.

  Q373  Chairman: Are you agreed, you and your own local POA, as to what the staffing levels should be or is there a dispute there?

  Mr Maguire: I think it would be fair to say that we have differences of opinion. I do not think we are miles apart by any stretch of the imagination. It is a question of where the emphasis is, at senior officer level or officer level, and so on. It would be true to say that we are not a million miles apart.

  Q374  Mr Clarke: You are not a million miles apart: I suppose that is the difference between one and four and one and six, is it not?

  Mr Maguire: That is one aspect. There are other aspects outside the actual wings themselves, outside the blocks themselves, as to how we actually configure staff by search teams and so forth.

  Q375  Mr Clarke: I will move quickly on because I realise there are lots of questions. The Chairman mentioned searching earlier on. Can you clarify that there will be no different searching regime for separated prisoners? They will still be subject to the same search regime as the integrated prisoners, including the use of the dogs?

  Mr Maguire: Yes. It is intended that the those prisoners in separated conditions will receive a search of the accommodation blocks; they will then as individuals receive full body searches and the search tactics will be employed in separated conditions in the same way as in integrated conditions. That is very explicit.

  Q376  Mr Clarke: It would seem from your answers that the management team is fully involved in the process of drawing up the compact. There are monthly discussions with the representatives recommended by Steele. Do you feel that your voice is being listened to in the proposals that you are making to the representatives?

  Mr Maguire: Residential Governor sits on the Project Board, which meets every Monday to monitor progress, make decisions and take various actions forward. Naturally, at the prison level we are driving this as best we possibly can. There are certain areas we can deal with locally and certain bits where we have to work with Headquarters. That progress is being made as quickly as possible, given the complexity of the project. I have to say that local management obviously is not involved in those discussions with outside representatives. However, I have fully kept up with what has been discussed in terms of the minutes of the meetings.

  Q377  Chairman: Can I just get this clear? The draft compact is out for consultation. Who has been consulted?

  Mr Maguire: It is not out for consultation yet.

  Q378  Chairman: It is going to be going out.

  Residential Governor: It should be going out.

  Q379  Chairman: Who will be consulted?

  Mr Maguire: I would imagine that political parties and various outside representatives and entities will be consulted. I have not been given any details on who actually will be consulted.


 
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