Examination of Witnesses (Questions 360
- 379)
TUESDAY 4 NOVEMBER 2003
MR PAT
MAGUIRE
Q360 Mr Clarke: Can I try to be helpful?
I understood that £6 is the standard and £4 is the basic.
Residential Governor: That is
right.
Q361 Mr Clarke: So within the separated
regime when prisoners are on standard with no opportunity to go
to enhanced, they would be on £6 a week. This begs the question
as to whether or not, within the drawing up of the compact, we
are looking at whether or not the cleaning and keeping of the
wing is part of a work programme and therefore would justify £6
a week on standard as opposed to £4 a week on basic. Is that
a correct assumption?
Governor of Inmate Services and Activities:
You are confused about the actual payment. The payment is actually
made up of two parts. There is a basic pay and then there is an
attendance allowance to encourage prisoners to participate in
up to ten sessions twice per day for a full week.
Q362 Chairman: Is that ten sessions
of work?
Governor of Inmate Services and Activities:
Yes, morning and afternoon, Monday through Friday, and that boosts
it up. If you attend work or attend an approved activity for those
ten periods, you get the pay at a fuller rate.
Q363 Chairman: What is the rate?
Governor of Inmate Services and Activities:
It is dependent on the level of the regime.
Chairman: We do need to know the facts.
Mr Clarke: It will be published as part
of the compact.
Q364 Chairman: But the compact is
for segregated prisoners? What we need really to understand is
the difference in the pay allowances, or whatever you call them,
that they receive, between those who are working in the integrated
regime and those who are not working in the separated regime.
Mr Maguire: Could I suggest that
we provide more detail after the hearing about this?
Q365 Chairman: I am sure that would
be very helpful. Thank you.
Residential Governor: May I just
make one point to clarify something Mr Clarke said? Every prisoner
who is on standard has an opportunity to go to enhanced. There
is nobody on standard who would have the opportunity.
Q366 Mr Clarke: Unless they are in
the separated?
Residential Governor: Everyone
in integrated is on standard and has the opportunity of going
to enhanced.
Q367 Mr Clarke: Free association
in Bush and Roe post-separation: will there be a more favourable
environment for separated than integrated or will the free association
be at the same level whether or not you are separated or integrated?
Residential Governor: The intention
with the separated prisoners is that they will have the opportunity
to associate with other prisoners either in the dining hall or
in the exercise yard, and the exercise yard, after the work we
have done on it to make sure there is no access to the roof, is
not as attractive as the exercise yards elsewhere, and the dining
hall is similar to dining halls throughout the prison.
Q368 Mr Clarke: It is the same if
not perhaps a little bit less attractive?
Residential Governor: Yes.
Q369 Mr Clarke: I am sorry to ask
such detailed questions; it is just that we are trying to get
an idea of the new regime. Could you talk about staffing levels
on the wings? Are we talking in this instance in terms of the
new separated Bush and Roe of one plus five or one plus six?
Residential Governor: It is not
agreed yet.
Q370 Chairman: It is not agreed between
who and whom?
Residential Governor: It is not
agreed between Headquarters and the Union.
Q371 Chairman: Headquarters are negotiating
this, not you?
Mr Maguire: It is a combination
of local management and Prison Service Headquarters, in consultation
obviously with the Union. We have not reached a resolution on
that yet. There are a number of options.
Q372 Mr Clarke: Have you put in a
recommendation?
Mr Maguire: Yes, and I think it
is true to say that we have had a series of discussions and we
are presently looking at trying to fit the staffing levels of
the regime together. We have just learnt that there are further
discussions taking place.
Q373 Chairman: Are you agreed, you
and your own local POA, as to what the staffing levels should
be or is there a dispute there?
Mr Maguire: I think it would be
fair to say that we have differences of opinion. I do not think
we are miles apart by any stretch of the imagination. It is a
question of where the emphasis is, at senior officer level or
officer level, and so on. It would be true to say that we are
not a million miles apart.
Q374 Mr Clarke: You are not a million
miles apart: I suppose that is the difference between one and
four and one and six, is it not?
Mr Maguire: That is one aspect.
There are other aspects outside the actual wings themselves, outside
the blocks themselves, as to how we actually configure staff by
search teams and so forth.
Q375 Mr Clarke: I will move quickly
on because I realise there are lots of questions. The Chairman
mentioned searching earlier on. Can you clarify that there will
be no different searching regime for separated prisoners? They
will still be subject to the same search regime as the integrated
prisoners, including the use of the dogs?
Mr Maguire: Yes. It is intended
that the those prisoners in separated conditions will receive
a search of the accommodation blocks; they will then as individuals
receive full body searches and the search tactics will be employed
in separated conditions in the same way as in integrated conditions.
That is very explicit.
Q376 Mr Clarke: It would seem from
your answers that the management team is fully involved in the
process of drawing up the compact. There are monthly discussions
with the representatives recommended by Steele. Do you feel that
your voice is being listened to in the proposals that you are
making to the representatives?
Mr Maguire: Residential Governor
sits on the Project Board, which meets every Monday to monitor
progress, make decisions and take various actions forward. Naturally,
at the prison level we are driving this as best we possibly can.
There are certain areas we can deal with locally and certain bits
where we have to work with Headquarters. That progress is being
made as quickly as possible, given the complexity of the project.
I have to say that local management obviously is not involved
in those discussions with outside representatives. However, I
have fully kept up with what has been discussed in terms of the
minutes of the meetings.
Q377 Chairman: Can I just get this
clear? The draft compact is out for consultation. Who has been
consulted?
Mr Maguire: It is not out for
consultation yet.
Q378 Chairman: It is going to be
going out.
Residential Governor: It should
be going out.
Q379 Chairman: Who will be consulted?
Mr Maguire: I would imagine that
political parties and various outside representatives and entities
will be consulted. I have not been given any details on who actually
will be consulted.
| 
