Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 380 - 399)

TUESDAY 4 NOVEMBER 2003

MR PAT MAGUIRE

  Q380  Chairman: When can we expect the final version to come out?

  Residential Governor: It will probably come out in the next two to three weeks.

  Q381  Chairman: It has not gone out for consultation yet?

  Residential Governor: No.

  Q382  Chairman: It is going out in the middle of an election campaign?

  Residential Governor: We will take advice on that. We are mindful of that.

  Q383  Mr Clarke: Eligibility criteria for separation: do you now have a firm idea as to who will be eligible, how they will be able to present themselves, on what basis they will be agreed or rejected? Could you say a little bit more about the influence that the paramilitary groupings themselves may have on that selection and whether or not they can have a veto in refusing to allow a person within that regime?

  Mr Maguire: Certainly a lot of work has gone into looking at the criteria for people who want to be on separated landings. Obviously, management must retain the capacity to make that decision. It will cover many areas. Among those would be: the prison history; the age of the candidate, as mentioned yesterday, whether he is over 18; whether there were any particular threats, say in integrated conditions, or whether the person was under any particular threat; obviously affiliation and police advice on affiliation which comes through now as a normal matter, although it does not always come through as quickly as one would like at times. Obviously we take into account community background as well. There will be a variety of factors upon which the decision has to be made. You just cannot say one specific thing like an offence necessarily; some things are taken into consideration as well but those are not the only things. You have to look at the wide range of things. This is a very complex matter and therefore it needs a complex solution to some extent.

  Q384  Mr Clarke: Those are the wings that still, in effect, have a reason because if they do not want somebody, they can threaten that person and therefore you would be wrong to place them there because they would be unsafe?

  Mr Maguire: Bear in mind that this will not be the Maze where 24 hour unlocks were available and you did not necessarily see some prisoners on a daily basis. Here there is going to be close monitoring, observation cameras and staff on the landings. There are going to be regular lock-ups during the day. Therefore, as far as humanly possible, but you can never 100% guarantee this, we will be able to ensure the safety of all prisoners. If a prisoner on a separated landing feels unsafe, he has to make himself known to the staff on the landing and if he is looking to go out of the landing, then he can return to the integrated conditions.

  Q385  Mr Clarke: Given the experiences that I know some of you have had in respect of the Maze, if you were to try to identify the future pressure points, should those in the separated regime wish to up the stakes, where do you foresee those coming from at the moment? What could they possibly do? You are moving people into these conditions. It would be difficult for them to force you down the wing. People are together in free association and so that obviously has some potential for trouble. You have already mentioned the wrecking of cells. If you were on the other side of the fence, if you were the paramilitary grouping that is trying to say, "We are not happy with this new regime, it is not good enough, it is not giving us what we want", what would you be planning?

  Mr Maguire: * * *

  Q386  Chairman: When this compact and the new regime is agreed, will the terms of it be made publicly available?

  Mr Maguire: I am not certain but I would imagine, since there have been regular updates on Steele placed on the Prison Service website, that there is no reason why that should not be put on the website.

  Q387  Chairman: I hope that might be made available to this Committee so that we can see whether the line is being held. I would just like to ask one question from the draft compact about visits. I understand what prisoners regard as normal and that what is going on during the interim period will make things difficult. "Longer term, it is necessary to identify some separate visiting arrangements, including separate visitor access." It was explained to us how the new facility is being built there. "Further discussions are required with prisoners". What is that about?

  Mr Maguire: I would imagine that obviously whenever we are putting this particular project together, and it is quite a number of months down the road, we are talking about a permanent, multi-functioning building. As part of the ongoing discussions, I am sure there will be, particularly with outside representatives, discussions that will be saying to them exactly what is going to be in this building and so forth.

  Q388  Chairman: In the long term will visits be open or closed?

  Mr Maguire: They will be along similar lines to the present visiting arrangements.

  Q389  Chairman: Have you considered reverting to closed visits?

  Mr Maguire: I do not think that would be appropriate.

  Q390  Chairman: Why?

  Mr Maguire: I think, when dealing with people equally as far as humanly possible, that both integrated prisoners and separated prisoners still have the requirement for family contact, which can only truly be achieved through open conditions rather than closed conditions

  Q391  Chairman: I am not talking about integrated prisoners. I am talking about separated prisoners only. This would solve your problem of people bringing in bullets to put in toasters and bringing in drugs. It would make it very much harder and make your job within the separated accommodation very much easier, would it not?

  Mr Maguire: I am sure it would but I think there would be many human rights considerations to be addressed. I think possibly we would lose the traditional channels if that was the policy adopted by the Prison Service Headquarters.

  Q392  Chairman: Is that advice you have sought and received or is it just your hope?

  Mr Maguire: It is my opinion. The question about open or closed visits really has not been raised. My view is that it would not be on the agenda. Open visits would be the way forward.

  Q393  Mr Beggs: New measures are being introduced to improve prison discipline, such as reintroducing the loss of remission and preventing the wearing of paramilitary uniforms by prisoners. Would new rules, for example to permit selected punishments like the denial of freedom of association and the revision of Rule 32 to facilitate the removal of a prisoner, impact possibly on the prison regime?

  Mr Maguire: The intention is that the existing prison rules and the additional sanctions that we are intending to implement will apply right across the prison, both in integrated and separated conditions. For example, if a prisoner disobeys an order in the separated conditions or tries to assault a member of staff, he will be removed from that location and placed in the SSU, special supervision unit, where he will be formally charged and adjudicated upon. Then he will serve his award as if he were an integrated prisoner. That means also that if cellular confinement is awarded, then he would serve that in the special supervision unit. There would be no special dispensation to separated prisoners.

  Q394  Mr Beggs: Do you anticipate that these new measures are likely to be accepted by both ordinary and paramilitary prisoners? If not, what difficulties are they likely to cause you?

  Mr Maguire: I do not think the additional sanctions are necessarily going to cause any particular grief with the integrated prisoners. It may cause the separated prisoners some disquiet but, at the end of the day, I am not necessarily paid to be popular with the rules. Therefore, we have got to put prison rules in place right across the prison and enforce them. It is important for staff to know that they will be supported by me if a prisoner breaches prison rules.

  Q395  Mr Beggs: How important will discipline be in ensuring that protests which are billed do not recommence?

  Mr Maguire: There can be no guarantees that a protest will not recommence. It is up to me as Governor to try and ensure that we manage those protests in as effective a way as possible. I do not make any joke of the fact that of course these challenges will be in place and will come forward from the various factions, even once we have got prisoners in these conditions in separated houses. I do not underestimate that one bit.

  Q396  Mr Beggs: Are there any particular measures which you believe will be important in supporting staff in maintaining this distinction between separation and segregation?

  Mr Maguire: Perhaps this is philosophical. Perhaps a debate could be had on separation or segregation. The separation that we are seeking is that prisoners are removed from others but in a controlled fashion. Segregation, in my view, appears to refer to the Maze conditions. However, I do not think the Oxford English Dictionary makes any distinction between separation and segregation.

  Chairman: That is why we have not been asking you about it!

  Q397  Mr Beggs: Finally, will paramilitaries who have been disciplined be able to portray themselves as victims of state repression to the external community?

  Mr Maguire: I am sure that may very well be top of their agenda. However, it should not, at the end of the day, prevent me or the management of Maghaberry from carrying out our duty of dealing with prisoners who have breached prison rules.

  Q398  Mr Swire: It was suggested to the Committee last week that some ordinary prisoners might still be accommodated in the same circumstances as separated prisoners; in fact, Peter Russell, the Director General of the Service, and I quote, said: "If we do not need the whole block for one faction, we can use the other half for somebody else". Is this the case and, if it is, is it desirable?

  Mr Maguire: I was unaware of that until this morning. I have not had discussions with regard to that and so I would like to reserve my view on that point.

  Q399  Mr Swire: Can I just press you on that? Were that to be the case, in your view, having learnt of it this morning, would it be desirable and would you be able to guarantee the safety of those ordinary prisoners in those circumstances?

  Mr Maguire: All I would say is that I would need to look at who was actually going in there. I would have some concerns because in the past in the Maze, Maze `H' Block 6, there were two opposing factions, the LVF and the INLA, on both sides of the block, and we all know what happened there. I would have some reservations but I would need to discuss those with Prison Service Headquarters.


 
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