Examination of Witnesses (Questions 380
- 399)
TUESDAY 4 NOVEMBER 2003
MR PAT
MAGUIRE
Q380 Chairman: When can we expect
the final version to come out?
Residential Governor: It will
probably come out in the next two to three weeks.
Q381 Chairman: It has not gone out
for consultation yet?
Residential Governor: No.
Q382 Chairman: It is going out in
the middle of an election campaign?
Residential Governor: We will
take advice on that. We are mindful of that.
Q383 Mr Clarke: Eligibility criteria
for separation: do you now have a firm idea as to who will be
eligible, how they will be able to present themselves, on what
basis they will be agreed or rejected? Could you say a little
bit more about the influence that the paramilitary groupings themselves
may have on that selection and whether or not they can have a
veto in refusing to allow a person within that regime?
Mr Maguire: Certainly a lot of
work has gone into looking at the criteria for people who want
to be on separated landings. Obviously, management must retain
the capacity to make that decision. It will cover many areas.
Among those would be: the prison history; the age of the candidate,
as mentioned yesterday, whether he is over 18; whether there were
any particular threats, say in integrated conditions, or whether
the person was under any particular threat; obviously affiliation
and police advice on affiliation which comes through now as a
normal matter, although it does not always come through as quickly
as one would like at times. Obviously we take into account community
background as well. There will be a variety of factors upon which
the decision has to be made. You just cannot say one specific
thing like an offence necessarily; some things are taken into
consideration as well but those are not the only things. You have
to look at the wide range of things. This is a very complex matter
and therefore it needs a complex solution to some extent.
Q384 Mr Clarke: Those are the wings
that still, in effect, have a reason because if they do not want
somebody, they can threaten that person and therefore you would
be wrong to place them there because they would be unsafe?
Mr Maguire: Bear in mind that
this will not be the Maze where 24 hour unlocks were available
and you did not necessarily see some prisoners on a daily basis.
Here there is going to be close monitoring, observation cameras
and staff on the landings. There are going to be regular lock-ups
during the day. Therefore, as far as humanly possible, but you
can never 100% guarantee this, we will be able to ensure the safety
of all prisoners. If a prisoner on a separated landing feels unsafe,
he has to make himself known to the staff on the landing and if
he is looking to go out of the landing, then he can return to
the integrated conditions.
Q385 Mr Clarke: Given the experiences
that I know some of you have had in respect of the Maze, if you
were to try to identify the future pressure points, should those
in the separated regime wish to up the stakes, where do you foresee
those coming from at the moment? What could they possibly do?
You are moving people into these conditions. It would be difficult
for them to force you down the wing. People are together in free
association and so that obviously has some potential for trouble.
You have already mentioned the wrecking of cells. If you were
on the other side of the fence, if you were the paramilitary grouping
that is trying to say, "We are not happy with this new regime,
it is not good enough, it is not giving us what we want",
what would you be planning?
Mr Maguire: * * *
Q386 Chairman: When this compact
and the new regime is agreed, will the terms of it be made publicly
available?
Mr Maguire: I am not certain but
I would imagine, since there have been regular updates on Steele
placed on the Prison Service website, that there is no reason
why that should not be put on the website.
Q387 Chairman: I hope that might
be made available to this Committee so that we can see whether
the line is being held. I would just like to ask one question
from the draft compact about visits. I understand what prisoners
regard as normal and that what is going on during the interim
period will make things difficult. "Longer term, it is necessary
to identify some separate visiting arrangements, including separate
visitor access." It was explained to us how the new facility
is being built there. "Further discussions are required with
prisoners". What is that about?
Mr Maguire: I would imagine that
obviously whenever we are putting this particular project together,
and it is quite a number of months down the road, we are talking
about a permanent, multi-functioning building. As part of the
ongoing discussions, I am sure there will be, particularly with
outside representatives, discussions that will be saying to them
exactly what is going to be in this building and so forth.
Q388 Chairman: In the long term will
visits be open or closed?
Mr Maguire: They will be along
similar lines to the present visiting arrangements.
Q389 Chairman: Have you considered
reverting to closed visits?
Mr Maguire: I do not think that
would be appropriate.
Q390 Chairman: Why?
Mr Maguire: I think, when dealing
with people equally as far as humanly possible, that both integrated
prisoners and separated prisoners still have the requirement for
family contact, which can only truly be achieved through open
conditions rather than closed conditions
Q391 Chairman: I am not talking about
integrated prisoners. I am talking about separated prisoners only.
This would solve your problem of people bringing in bullets to
put in toasters and bringing in drugs. It would make it very much
harder and make your job within the separated accommodation very
much easier, would it not?
Mr Maguire: I am sure it would
but I think there would be many human rights considerations to
be addressed. I think possibly we would lose the traditional channels
if that was the policy adopted by the Prison Service Headquarters.
Q392 Chairman: Is that advice you
have sought and received or is it just your hope?
Mr Maguire: It is my opinion.
The question about open or closed visits really has not been raised.
My view is that it would not be on the agenda. Open visits would
be the way forward.
Q393 Mr Beggs: New measures are being
introduced to improve prison discipline, such as reintroducing
the loss of remission and preventing the wearing of paramilitary
uniforms by prisoners. Would new rules, for example to permit
selected punishments like the denial of freedom of association
and the revision of Rule 32 to facilitate the removal of a prisoner,
impact possibly on the prison regime?
Mr Maguire: The intention is that
the existing prison rules and the additional sanctions that we
are intending to implement will apply right across the prison,
both in integrated and separated conditions. For example, if a
prisoner disobeys an order in the separated conditions or tries
to assault a member of staff, he will be removed from that location
and placed in the SSU, special supervision unit, where he will
be formally charged and adjudicated upon. Then he will serve his
award as if he were an integrated prisoner. That means also that
if cellular confinement is awarded, then he would serve that in
the special supervision unit. There would be no special dispensation
to separated prisoners.
Q394 Mr Beggs: Do you anticipate
that these new measures are likely to be accepted by both ordinary
and paramilitary prisoners? If not, what difficulties are they
likely to cause you?
Mr Maguire: I do not think the
additional sanctions are necessarily going to cause any particular
grief with the integrated prisoners. It may cause the separated
prisoners some disquiet but, at the end of the day, I am not necessarily
paid to be popular with the rules. Therefore, we have got to put
prison rules in place right across the prison and enforce them.
It is important for staff to know that they will be supported
by me if a prisoner breaches prison rules.
Q395 Mr Beggs: How important will
discipline be in ensuring that protests which are billed do not
recommence?
Mr Maguire: There can be no guarantees
that a protest will not recommence. It is up to me as Governor
to try and ensure that we manage those protests in as effective
a way as possible. I do not make any joke of the fact that of
course these challenges will be in place and will come forward
from the various factions, even once we have got prisoners in
these conditions in separated houses. I do not underestimate that
one bit.
Q396 Mr Beggs: Are there any particular
measures which you believe will be important in supporting staff
in maintaining this distinction between separation and segregation?
Mr Maguire: Perhaps this is philosophical.
Perhaps a debate could be had on separation or segregation. The
separation that we are seeking is that prisoners are removed from
others but in a controlled fashion. Segregation, in my view, appears
to refer to the Maze conditions. However, I do not think the Oxford
English Dictionary makes any distinction between separation
and segregation.
Chairman: That is why we have not been
asking you about it!
Q397 Mr Beggs: Finally, will paramilitaries
who have been disciplined be able to portray themselves as victims
of state repression to the external community?
Mr Maguire: I am sure that may
very well be top of their agenda. However, it should not, at the
end of the day, prevent me or the management of Maghaberry from
carrying out our duty of dealing with prisoners who have breached
prison rules.
Q398 Mr Swire: It was suggested to
the Committee last week that some ordinary prisoners might still
be accommodated in the same circumstances as separated prisoners;
in fact, Peter Russell, the Director General of the Service, and
I quote, said: "If we do not need the whole block for one
faction, we can use the other half for somebody else". Is
this the case and, if it is, is it desirable?
Mr Maguire: I was unaware of that
until this morning. I have not had discussions with regard to
that and so I would like to reserve my view on that point.
Q399 Mr Swire: Can I just press you
on that? Were that to be the case, in your view, having learnt
of it this morning, would it be desirable and would you be able
to guarantee the safety of those ordinary prisoners in those circumstances?
Mr Maguire: All I would say is
that I would need to look at who was actually going in there.
I would have some concerns because in the past in the Maze, Maze
`H' Block 6, there were two opposing factions, the LVF and the
INLA, on both sides of the block, and we all know what happened
there. I would have some reservations but I would need to discuss
those with Prison Service Headquarters.
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