Examination of Witnesses (Questions 440
- 449)
TUESDAY 4 NOVEMBER 2003
MR GRAHAM
MARTIN, MS
SOPHIE BRYSON
AND MS
RUTH HEWITT
Q440 Mr Barnes: I might raise a sensitive
area that could be excluded from the final report. Initially Mr
Martin said to the Chairman that members of the Board of Visitors
were under threat. Have Board members been subjected to the same
type of threats that we know about in connection with prison officers?
Could you give us some detail as to what is going on and what
the problems are?
Mr Martin: A significant number
of our members have in fact had a similar kind of experience.
I will give you my experience, which is I think fairly typical.
We had a knock at our door at 10.30 in the evening. Normally at
that time in the evening you do not necessarily run to answer
it because it is not usual to have people calling at that time
of the evening. but it did happen to be a policeman who came to
tell me that high grade intelligence had been received that a
dissident Republican group had discussed the possibility of picketing
our home. It was pointed out to me that picketing was a term that
could be used quite liberally in relation to various activities
that might be anticipated by that group in terms of progressing
their objective. There followed detailed advice about security
precautions we should take. My wife was there at the time and
it was an interesting little debate we had after the policeman
went about security generally. To a large extent, all of our members
are volunteers; we are not in any sense paid for what we do. We
do this as a public service, and so we do not expect to become
embroiled in the extreme edges of the turmoil that is going on
but realistically we always expect that in a situation that is
so unstable it is impossible to predict the outcome, but to have
it brought so forcefully to us and then to have security installed
at our homes and so on brought us into an arena that we never
expected to be in. That was one of the reasons that I prefaced
my remarks at the outset because a lot of our members are very
concerned about this and very sensitive about it, particularly
because of the involvement of our families and the fact that in
this situation there is a group of individuals who are to a very
large extent unpredictable in their activities. The police are
telling us that there is no history of this to be able to advise
us whether to take it very seriously or not to take it seriously
at all. We have all had to take it very seriously and the result
has been that for the first time, as I said in my introductory
remarks, and uniquely as members of the Board of Visitors, we
find ourselves in this rather odd situation. We always try to
plough a very definite furrow between the two sides, the management
on the one side and prisoners on the other, and to act in an impartial
way in dealing with our statutory responsibilities. Unfortunately,
that has to a large extent had a question mark placed over it
because of the difficulties we have experienced.
Q441 Mr Barnes: Are you entitled
to the same form of home protection as prison officers?
Mr Martin: * * *.
Q442 Chairman: The Maghaberry Chairman
or the national Chairman?
Mr Martin: The Northern Ireland
Chairman, Flynn Spratt. He made it plain, and indeed I have had
private conversations with him where I was trying to encourage
him to take a positive view. His whole thrust was that he recognised
that there was a combined effort but he complained that he was
not able to get through or to trust prison management. That was
his problem. The point I was going to make is that this whole
business around security might be a symptom rather than an actual
problem. It might be a symptom of mistrust and general concern
about the way in which management deals with staff. From our experience,
and we may have got this entirely wrong, we believe there is a
great deal more to that than the simple issues around security
because at the outset the requests that were being made were very
different from the requests that are currently being made. The
issue around this seems just to be much more complex than just
about simple matters of security.
Q443 Mr Barnes: I will ask now about
attacks on prison officers because they seem to be at a higher
level since the change to separation was announced. What do you
think are the reasons for these attacks and what are the implications
for the future management of the prison?
Mr Martin: Traditionally, this
has been the mechanism by which extreme organisations have tended
to make their points. When the argument or whatever device is
used in the establishment does not work, then they move outside.
Obviously they have their own agenda as to how that kind of issue
can be used, how various activities can be used to promulgate
their ultimate objective of whatever and in whatever degree. It
is a very difficult situation.
Ms Bryson: * * *.
Q444 Mr Barnes: Attacks on their
homes?
Ms Bryson: I do not think attacks
within the prison are significantly raised. I make that point.
Q445 Chairman: It is the families
and their homes. Just for the record, have there been any actual
attacks on your members' homes?
Ms Bryson: No.
Q446 Chairman: We are only talking
about threats, are we?
Mr Martin: Just threats.
Ms Hewitt: There are threats in
the context of Continuity IRA. They have threatened to picket
your home. My note said that was the Continuity IRA. I do not
want to introduce a red herring but are we in the same league
as the officers in the Loyalist threat?
Ms Bryson: I think not.
Ms Hewitt: There was picketing
by the Continuity IRA.
Q447 Chairman: Picketing is different
from nail bombs, pipe bombs and petrol bombs through letterboxes
and that sort of thing, which the prison officers have had to
endure over the years.
Ms Hewitt: It was explained to
us that picketing is a euphemism.
Chairman: There is picketing and picketing.
Q448 Mr Barnes: I will ask a final
question about security in the prison itself. I know that Sophie
Bryson was surprised by the extent of the developments that have
taken place and did not think that the Steele Report had required
things to be as extensive as they were, but once you move into
that sort of area, then maybe you have got to be quite sure that
the security provisions are quite tight in those tight circumstances,
once you have established that type of regime. Do you think what
is being installed will be satisfactory for the protection of
the prisoners themselves?
Ms Bryson: If I am honest, I have
not been to look at Bush House, which they are working on now.
I have only seen it from a distance. I understand that they are
putting in very extensive cages to walk through and a lot more
cameras and so on. It sounds as though, yes, what they are putting
in is top of the range and very expensive stuff. I must be honest,
we are not security experts and I have not actually been to look
at that. I find my time has been taken up in the last two weeks
answering requests from people living in the houses.
Q449 Mr Barnes: It is probably not
a fair question because you are not in a position to judge.
Ms Bryson: Maybe my colleagues
have a view.
Chairman: Ladies and gentlemen, thank
you very much for coming to help us with this inquiry. We are
very grateful to you for the frank way you have spoken to us.
We will respect your confidences. May I say how sorry we are that
we kept you waiting. We had a long and interesting session with
the Governor and his staff.
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