Examination of Witnesses (Questions 450
- 459)
WEDNESDAY 12 NOVEMBER 2003
MR GERRY
MCALEER,
MR BOB
CROMIE AND
MR MIKE
NEWMAN
Q450 Chairman: Gentlemen, thank you
for coming to help us in our inquiry into the separation of paramilitary
prisoners in HMP Maghaberry. Let us just start with going back
a little bit. What main factors do you think, both within and
outside the prison, contributed to the escalation of the protests
during the summer?
Mr McAleer: My understanding of
the protest last summer was that the original protest had nothing
whatsoever to do with segregation, it had to do with prison conditions.
The segregation issue came along much later. So I do not think
there was anything in particular going on in the prison at that
time. That question would probably be best answered by the Governor
of Maghaberry, who would know more about what was going on than
we would know.
Q451 Chairman: We have indeed spoken
to him, as I believe you know. I just wondered whether you had
a view as an association.
Mr McAleer: No. The view of the
association is that what went on last year was mainly about conditions.
The segregation issue was something which was added quite late
in the year, I would say.
Q452 Chairman: Just to get Members,
as it were, properly sighted, are you a current prison Governor?
Mr McAleer: I am the Governor
in charge of the prison escort group as well as being chairman
of the association.
Q453 Chairman: And Mr Cromie?
Mr McAleer: Mr Cromie is a Governor
in the YOC and Mike Newman is a Deputy Governor in Magilligan
Prison. All three of us have served in most of the prisons. The
three of us have served in the Maze, so we are familiar with the
segregation and separation issues.
Q454 Chairman: Mr Cromie, you were
not there when we visited, were you?
Mr Cromie: No, I was not.
Q455 Chairman: I would be very embarrassed
if I had failed to recognise you.
Mr Cromie: Once seen never forgotten.
Q456 Chairman: You have said in your
memorandum that separation is ". . . a retrograde step, .
. . a corrupting influence which . . . surrenders the management
of the prison to those with dubious credentials and no professional
expertise." Those are pretty strong words. Why do you say
that?
Mr McAleer: It is our professional
view that the way to maintain safety for everybody and have a
proper prison regime is to have an integrated system, and we have
found this to be the best way. We do that normally with paramilitary
types but, also, with people like sex offenders. It is just our
view that the best way of running a prison is full integration.
The Maze experience taught us that when you separate or segregate
prisoners then you hand over the running of the jail to people
outside the prison, and there is lots of political interference
which undermines the actual running by the professionals within
the prison. That is our view as an association.
Q457 Chairman: The head of your Prison
Service and indeed the Government view generally is that there
will be no handing over of responsibility or control. Indeed when
we were in Maghaberry a week or two ago we were shown the very
strict regime by which the plan is not to let the prisoners have
any control over the prison. What do you say to that? Do you not
think those methods are enough?
Mr McAleer: First of all, we would
not dispute that lots of security measures are being put in and
certainly the management in Maghaberry will do their best. We
are basing our view on our experience and we already have indications
that the situation now is beginning to escalate with the paramilitary
prisoners. It is our understanding that they are starting to put
pressure on concerning controlled movements, that they are not
going to co-operate with it. These are things which happened at
the Maze. We are also concerned about the fact that people are
talking to outside agencies. I issued a note to all governors
not to take part in any discursions with anyone; it is for politicians
to do that. It undermines the governor in the jail when people
are talking to outside bodies. We are against headquarters doing
this because we think it undermines the governor.
Q458 Chairman: Who were they talking
to?
Mr McAleer: They were talking
to political representatives and various groups outside. That
is my understanding of what is happening. What that does is undermine
the governor. This is what happened in the Maze and that is how
the Maze got into the trouble that it did. Lots of the decisions
that were taken were taken outside the jail, not inside the jail.
Q459 Chairman: Do not tell me.
Mr McAleer: That is what our concerns
are.
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