Examination of Witnesses (Questions 600
- 603)
WEDNESDAY 19 NOVEMBER 2003
MR FINLAY
SPRATT AND
MS JUNE
ROBINSON
Q600 Mr Barnes: Those that you were
pressing and that you have already elaborated on?
Ms Robinson: Yes. Management are
picking out pieces of the Steele Review—some of the recommendations
in respect of measures for separation. They seem to be ignoring
some of the concerns of staff which John Steele did highlight.
Q601 Mr Barnes: Do you expect there
will be any pressures to extend separation beyond Maghaberry?
Mr Spratt: No. I believe that
depending where we keep the bulk of so-called paramilitary prisoners,
that is where it will come from. We have had this experience in
the past: they attempted to extend segregation to Magilligan.
They tried to impose their will in Belfast, and they successfully
defended that. I believe that segregation can be controlled, but
you have to be prepared to supplement the resources to do it.
You have to be determined to see it through. You cannot just set
down a regime—and I have already made the point to the Northern
Ireland Office. Let us start as we intend to go on. Do not put
in something that you know three months down the road you will
have to change because it is seen then as a victory for people.
I believe that separation can be controlled, providing we have
got the proper facilities. Surely, the experience we have had
over this last thirty years, should teach us something? The point
I am making in my memorandum is that there are very few people
bout the NIPS at the moment who have the experience. There was
in the year 2000 a staff reduction programme. That is when all
the experience walked out the door. We are a very young service
and we are being le by people who do not have that experience.
I do believe that the NIPS, given the resources, can do it. I
am sure that my colleagues tomorrow morning will give you a few
examples of what is going on at Maghaberry, which clearly show
you they do not have the commitment to defend the position of
separation.
Q602 Mr Barnes: Might there be a
need to move people from Magilligan and Maghaberry in order to
fit in with the separation regime?
Mr Spratt: When I met the Steele
inquiry team, my view was that if we had to separate them, then
they should be taken out of Maghaberry because I do not believe
you can run a separated regime within Maghaberry and they run
a normal prison regime around it. My view was that they should
be taken out and told quite clearly: "We run an integrated
prison system. If you want to, you are quite welcome to join that.
However, if you do not, then put them into separate conditions
that we have control over." I believe they should have been
taken out of Maghaberry. In fact, I suggested they should be put
in the north-west, Magilligan Prison. That would have been the
place, so we could have run Maghaberry as a category A prison,
delivering proper prison regimes and services to the prison population.
I believe that if that group of people in there continue to contaminate
Maghaberry, it will spread within Maghaberry.
Q603 Mr Barnes: Is this vision to
separate prisoners—one for paramilitaries and the other
for the others, or do you start to do the separation division
in Magilligan?
Mr Spratt: I believe they should
have been taken out of Maghaberry and placed in Magilligan, purely
as a separate regime, removed from the prison system, so that
we could get on running the penal system.
Chairman: Mr Spratt and Ms Robinson,
those are all the questions we have. Thank you for coming.
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