Examination of Witnesses (Questions 604
- 619)
THURSDAY 20 NOVEMBER 2003
MR MARK
LEWIS AND
MR JAMES
DUFFY
Q604 Chairman: Good morning. The
purpose of this morning is to try and persuade you to put as much
on the record as you told us off the record at that very interesting
and revealing session that we had with you in Maghaberry and because
we are sitting in private we will send you the transcript of what
you say, and if you feel that there is anything you say which
is particularly sensitive in nature which you would rather did
not appear in the evidence you are free to suggest it to us and
we will exclude it, but it is up to the Committee whether we do
so or not. All this is to try and encourage you to be as frank
as you possibly can. Forgive me if we ask you again some of the
questions we asked you before. How do the staff feel about the
implementation of separation now the decision has been made?
Mr Duffy: Everybody we spoke to
was of one voice, we were all against separation because of the
lessons we had learnt from the Maze. We said that it was only
a very small contingency, possibly 40 prisoners that were causing
the problems and those prisoners should have been dealt with.
Mr Lewis: In 2000 we shed approximately
40% of our staff. We explained to the remaining 60% we would normalise
the Prison Service, we would create an environment of normality,
the peace process had been going reasonably well up to then and
the idea was to bring everything on-line with mainland GB. We
increased staff training, we tried to create a regime where we
could offer our presence as much as was being offered on mainland
GB. Obviously there is a degree of dismay with the implementation
of separation and segregation.
Q605 Chairman: Do you think the new
regime will contribute to the safety of prison officers and prisoners,
as the Steele Report suggested?
Mr Duffy: Personally, no, I do
not. It will have problems inside, but the major problems we foresee
will be outside. If we are given the necessary resources inside
the prison and the control measures which we have seen in Bush
House, which are excellent, we could handle it. Our problem when
we move the prisoners from Bann 1 and 2 and Lagan 1 and 2 will
be where they are at the moment for the temporary segregation.
When they move in there, as we know from experience, they will
not accept those conditions. They will more than likely attempt
to assault staff. If we have the resources they will not succeed,
not to the extent that they would expect. If they cannot get us
inside then we are quite sure they will get us outside.
Q606 Chairman: Do you think there
is going to be an instant reaction when you move them in?
Mr Duffy: Personally, no, maybe
not an instant reaction because they need the numbers. If they
are moving the Loyalists into a house then more than likely the
action will be instantaneous because they do have a full house
complement. What we are hearing from the Republicans at the moment
is it is about 40. We have other Republicans in the prison that
have just come to our notice since our meeting with yourselves
that have raised concerns about their own personal safety.
Q607 Chairman: Safety if they go
into the separated regime or if they stay in the situation they
are in now?
Mr Duffy: The situation where
they are now. They have raised concerns about their own safety.
The problem we have now is the Republican prisoners who are in
the like of Lagan 1 and 2 are of a different faction, they will
not accept those prisoners coming onto their landing, so the Governor
has a real problem.
Q608 Chairman: Which faction is which?
Mr Lewis: After the Good Friday
Agreement there was a fragmentation of the mainstream paramilitary
organisations within Northern Ireland: the Provisional IRA became
the Continuity IRA, the Real IRA, the 32 County Sovereignty Committee,
UDA, UFF, Orange Volunteers etc.
Q609 Chairman: That we understand.
It is a question of who is which in Lagan 1 and 2.
Mr Lewis: This is what Mr Duffy
means by factionisation. These people have formed their own quasi
military units within the prison and they are even disagreeing
with each other to a degree.
Mr Duffy: The dissidents, the
like of the Real IRA and Continuity IRA, they are the main ones
that are in Lagan 1 and 2 at the moment.
Q610 Chairman: Real and Continuity,
are they getting on with each other?
Mr Lewis: They will get along
to a point to achieve the overall aim of their own separation.
Q611 Chairman: They will co-operate,
will they?
Mr Duffy: In what they refer to
as Stage 1. Stage 2 is when they move into either Bush or Roe.
Stage 3 as far as we are concerned is when they will make their
push for their own wings or possibly their own houses. At the
moment in Lagan 1 and 2 we have 27 and 28 Loyalists separated
at the moment.
Q612 Chairman: And the 27 are Real
and Continuity?
Mr Duffy: Yes, sir.
Q613 Chairman: You do not differentiate
between the two?
Mr Duffy: No, sir.
Q614 Chairman: And they will go together
into Bush or Roe?
Mr Duffy: Yes. What we have received
information on is that there are other Republicans—be they
normal IRA prisoners or whatever, I am not sure—prisoners
there who have voiced concerns about their own personal safety.
Q615 Chairman: Who do they feel threatened
by?
Mr Lewis: The INLA, the Irish
National Liberation Army and obviously loyalists.
Q616 Chairman: How many of them are
there?
Mr Lewis: I am going to make a
differential here. When a prisoner comes into prison we receive
from the PSNI side in Northern Ireland a piece of paper that affiliates
him to a paramilitary organisation, if he is a member of such
an organisation. These people then come together and they recruit
more members of their own organisations from their own communities
within the prison, i.e. the Nationalist Roman Catholic community
would recruit from the Nationalist Roman Catholic community and
the UDA/UDF would recruit from the Protestant/Loyalist community.
You can start off as we did, with 30, 40 or 50 and within a year
you can effectively have 150 to 200 and this is the problem we
have at the moment. What Mr Duffy is saying to you is that we
have 30 to 40 of these people at the minute who we have segregated
and they will be going into these houses. There are up to another
100 prisoners who are showing a keen interest in joining them
because they can see that these people appear to be getting better
conditions than the ordinary mainstream prisoner, which is worrying.
Q617 Chairman: So it is that rather
than any form of ideology or wanting to join anything that you
think is the motivation?
Mr Lewis: Yes, that is my perception.
Q618 Chairman: It is not surprising
since Bush and Roe are the best houses with the best accommodation.
Mr Duffy: They have separated
visiting areas which ordinary visitors see when they are coming
in and they are going to the ordinary prisoner area, and the segregated
prisoners refer to it as the "executive suite" and it
is extremely plush compared to what everybody else is cramming
into.
Mr Lewis: We are currently using
a room designed to hold 20 visiting tables and we are cramming
28 to 30 ordinary prisoners into this room and we are using a
room with soft comfortable furniture, little partitioned off cubicles
and a creche facility for maybe ten or eleven paramilitary prisoners
at a time. So visitors coming in will look at this room crammed
full of people, with children running about with nothing to do
and they will see the comfortable executive suite where the paramilitaries
go, where there are tea and coffee making facilities and a creche
and nice seats.
Q619 Chairman: Which does exist in
the main visitors' area.
Mr Duffy: No, sir, I am afraid
not.
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