Examination of Witnesses (Questions 780
- 799)
WEDNESDAY 10 DECEMBER 2003
RT HON
JANE KENNEDY
MP, PETER RUSSELL
AND PETER
LEONARD
Q780 Chairman: Just to get this on the
record before we press on, we have been told that it is seven
million a year, the additional cost.
Mr Russell: That is still the
ball park figure, yes.
Q781 Chairman: Can you confirm that the
Government is providing this money additionally to the resource
provision for the Prison Service?
Mr Russell: Yes.
Jane Kennedy: It will need to
be additional to their current level and it is going to be.
Q782 Chairman: Is that coming from the
Treasury or elsewhere in the Northern Ireland budget?
Jane Kennedy: The final dots have
yet to be put in.
Chairman: That is a very good answer.
The Treasury will give you an awful rocket if you give me another
answer, will they not?
Q783 Mr Luke: Minister, you have already
used the words "hold the line" and "stand firm".
The prison governor and the management team and the prison officers
at Maghaberry Prison in previous discussions assured us that they
will hold the line of separation that has been brought about by
the Government. What concerns us today is that the Government
may change their mind to meet another political need, as happened
with the Maze, and they will be left to recover the pieces. Can
you say categorically that the line that has been drawn is the
final line and that there will be no further extensions of separation
under any circumstances?
Jane Kennedy: One of the reasons
why we have encouraged the development of this regime is that
this is where we intend to stand. Had we had to stand over the
previous regime, there was real concern that, had it gone into
the ultimate of a hunger strike, we would have had difficulty,
particularly if prisoners had continued to manipulate the regime
and to carry out attacks on each other, and that we would have
been seen to have tried to stand firm on a position where we were
not on solid ground and then were beaten off it. Now we believe
we are developing a regime where we will be on absolutely firm
ground, where we will be able to demonstrate to the wider public
across Northern Ireland that what we are providing is safe for
prisoners but is safe for prison officers as well in their management
of that regime. We intend to do that by encouraging the media
to come into the new regime to see what we are developing so that
there is less mystery about the process. Having done that, it
is absolutely vital for the Prison Service for us then to stand
with them in delivering that and I know, because I have talked
to many prison officers and governors, that there is a real horror
in the minds of those who remember the Maze regime and real fear
that we might slip down what they describe as a slippery slope
back to that regime. If we are not going to go there, and if,
as many of us believe, we will face pressure at some point, particularly
if dissident Republican prisoners are determined on a particular
political campaign, and if we are determined to stand and hold
the line, we need to do it where we believe we can do that. We
need to choose our own ground and we believe we are now establishing
that ground so that, irrespective of what campaign they then embark
upon, we can say first of all that we know now we have a safe
regime. We believe it is as safe as it is possible for a prison
regime to be and what they are then demanding is unreasonable.
Because we believe we might face that pressure later on we have
been working with the Home Office to make sure that the Prison
Service in Northern Ireland is not left alone with this pressure
cooker of a prison to manage on its own. We have been taking steps
with the Home Office and with the Scottish Prison Service to make
sure that there would be occasional safety valves for us to redeploy
prisoners in the event that a particular prisoner was causing
such disorder within the prison that the normal running of the
prison was difficult to maintain. We have been trying to look
at this from every angle to make sure that we are trying to think
ahead to try and see, if this is not about safety and if it is
about some other political campaign, what are their points of
attack going to be and how can we resist them when they come for
us.
Q784 Chairman: Just to make that absolutely
clear, you have got contingency plans to move prisoners who make
trouble into Scottish or English prisons?
Jane Kennedy: We are working with
the Prison Service in England and Wales. The Prison Service in
Scotland is to consult on the proposals. It will allow us, in
the event of serious disorder in the prison in Northern Ireland,
to remove one or two prisoners—not a large number; a very
small number but the ringleaders of such disorder—and place
them outside of the jurisdiction for a short period of time until
the conditions at the prison are restored.
Mr Russell: Chairman, can I say
that there are provisions in the Justice (Northern Ireland) Bill
which was published last week, the second reading of which is
due next week. It is a shortish bill. If I were to speculate on
clause 13 I would not be very far away.
Chairman: I am sure our Scottish colleagues
will be delighted with this news.
Mr McGrady: Mr Russell, I am somewhat
shocked by what you have just said.
Chairman: You are not the only one.
Mr McGrady: To put this into the political
context rather than the prison regime context, if that happens,
if you transport paramilitaries from Northern Ireland to Scotland
or England or Wales, you will be creating an enormous political
weapon that will be exploited by the paramilitaries. I just want
to put that down, Chairman. I am very disturbed by that, not because
I do not have total sympathy with what you are trying to do, but
I am just putting a marker down now that it will not be something
that I would see as politically wise.
Q785 Chairman: We would be very interested
to have the Minister's comments.
Jane Kennedy: When talking through
what the problems were for governors and prison officers with
them, one of their difficulties is that they have not got the
same facility that they have in England, for example, with 120
or so prisons, although not all of them can accommodate such high
security prisoners, so that they can at least move a prisoner
and in that way break the context of the links that that prisoner
has within one particular institution. It does not have to be
for an extended period; it could be for a limited period, but
they are able to manage prisoners within a rather greater prison
state. The fact that in Northern Ireland there are only three
prisons, and only one of them is for high security prisoners,
means that they have to contain all of that within the one institution
and it is therefore much more difficult for the prison governors
and prison officers to hold the line in what becomes a very difficult
pressure cooker. I am very conscious of the point that you make.
This is why we believe that, so long as we can demonstrate that
the Prison Service in Northern Ireland at Maghaberry Prison is
a safe regime and that if any campaign being mounted to demonstrate
on safety or whatever else the next issue is in reality it is
about control, there will be limited public support. I do not
say there would be no public support but limited public support
for such a campaign, so long as what we did was reasonable and
was demonstrably reasonable. It is not as if we are transporting
them to Australia, for goodness' sake, and it is something that
is published. It is something that we would envisage being used
in extremely limited circumstances and only when the governors
felt that the only way to bring in and restore good order to the
prison was to remove a particular individual or one or two individuals.
Chairman: All I would say is, I beg you
to take Mr McGrady's advice and warning very seriously. I can
see a hornet's nest being stirred up. They would not consider
it in Australia or Guantanamo Bay.
Mr McGrady: Or in the Kilmainham Prison(?)
in 1916
Q786 Chairman: History is not on your
side over there.
Jane Kennedy: Neither is it over
hunger strikes. We are caught between a rock and a hard place.
Chairman: You have our sympathy with
that.
Mr Luke: Minister, can you assure us
for the record that the management staff and staff of Maghaberry
Prison have the full backing of the Government and the Prison
Service headquarters in holding what you see as this final line?
Jane Kennedy: Absolutely.
Q787 Chairman: I am very interested in
what you have been saying but I am afraid it has provoked another
series of questions. Let me put this to you. The troubles you
had in the summer which led to the Steele Review which led to
this decision for separation did not just happen by chance. They
happened at a time of heightened political expectation. It happened
at a time of heightened political sensitivity with people wanting
to get back to elections, wanting to get an assembly back and
wanting their demands met. One way of getting those demands met
was to make trouble in the prisons. It is the traditional way
that has been used throughout much of Northern Ireland's history.
As a result they got their concessions. I am not saying this in
any pejorative way. Now we are in a period where, for better or
worse, there is not likely to be a highly sensitive political
situation for a while, so when you say, "We are going to
be ready to cope with it when it comes", the time is not
going to be of your choosing; it is going to be of theirs. There
will come a time when it is perceived that there is another heightened
political situation, possibilities of development for peace, disarmament,
assemblies, executives, put it whatever way you like, and they
will want something and they will put the pressure on. Are you
not then going to be under exactly the same political pressure
that I feel sure you have felt under, if you have not actually
been put under it? This is a very sensitive area. Do not let anything
happen to upset it in the prisons.
Jane Kennedy: The difference will
be that, having made the changes that we are planning to make,
we will, as I said, be on much stronger ground to resist.
Q788 Chairman: You say that, Minister.
Your advice was that you were on strong ground in the summer.
Your advice was, "We can hold the line". Your advice
was, "This ground is strong. We are not going down any slippery
slope unless you order us to", and yet—I am not trying
to put words into your mouth; we all know the pressures you are
under; there is no blame attached to this, but this is the way
that both sides use the system. Next time round are you then going
to say, "Right: I am going to tolerate a hunger strike",
because I am afraid your remark that they will not get much support
outside is mistaken. I imagine Mr Adams and Mr McGuinness are
as appalled as we are at the dissident Republicans and the way
they are behaving, if you have a hunger strike the Republicans
will be on the streets. I see Mr McGrady nodding his head. That
is part of their history, it is part of their culture. Will you
take a hunger strike next time and say, "We are holding the
line", or will you remove them to an English or Scottish
prison so that they have their hunger strike there? I just want
to put this to you, that there if there is a line that is going
to be held, it is going to be held at any stage at enormous cost.
Q789 Jane Kennedy: You may be right.
I hope that, for example, we will see a change in the public mood
as a result of what we are doing, somewhat similar to the change
in public mood that has taken place around the issue of policing
and the changes that have taken place to the police. For example,
when the dissident Republican movement attacked new members of
the district policing partners in Northern Ireland there was condemnation,
not right across the board but in particular from the Catholic
Church. Clearly the SDLP condemned it. Many of the courageous
people who were coming forward to serve under the DPPs were Catholics
and were from the nationalist tradition. What I discovered in
my conversations about the prisoners, and in particular I met
with not all but some of the Catholic bishops in Northern Ireland,
was their very real fear that the prison was not safe, that there
was enough in what the dissident Republicans were claiming to
give credence to their claim that it was not safe, and they believed
something must be done. Therefore, when the Steele Review was
established and the indication was that we were going to look
at what we were doing in Maghaberry, the welcome for that review
came from right across the board. That is where I became sure
that we were not going to be able to hold the status quo at that
point. I am now confident that, having made the changes that we
are delivering, there will be a greater understanding of what
those changes are. We do need to work to make sure that the public
commentators, the opinion forecasters, those who might have influence
upon the Republican movement and Republican and nationalist opinion
in general, if there were a dissident Republican hunger strike,
would send a message, however muted, out to the Republican communities
that actually this is nonsense and the hunger strikes are not
justified. I am not sure that we will see that. I really am not
sure that that is what will come of it. I should add that it would
not necessarily be hunger strikers that we would move. I can see
why that would send a sense of real anxiety out.
Q790 Chairman: If it were not hunger
strikers—and I do not want to put words into your mouth—it
would be the "leaders" but you are not going to allow
any leaders, you are saying. How are you going to stop people
from being leaders?
Jane Kennedy: It is all uncharted
waters for us at this moment.
Q791 Chairman: Minister, if it were uncharted
waters I think we would be a little more sympathetic. These waters
have been charted, the rocks have all been met, the ships have
been holed, often below the waterline, and we are trying to help
you see that it does not happen again.
Jane Kennedy: Yes, but what we
are seeking to do, if you like, is develop a regime in which it
does not happen again.
Q792 Mr Tynan: I find it incredible that
we start off with a situation where we have this commission and
then we move to the Steele Review and then we decide that we are
going to give way as regards compromise in the belief that that
will stop it. I think it is impossible. If I were in Maghaberry
then I certainly would be in a situation where I would recognise
how far I could go and how fast I could go there. While the Scots
are very hospitable, I think you would agree that there is such
tremendous unity around the cause in Northern Ireland that you
will be damned if you attempt to move the leaders and prisoners
from Northern Ireland to England, Wales or Scotland. I think that
the public perception of that would be that you have decided to
move the people who they recognise as leaders from the prison
and I would caution against doing that, not because the Scots
would not take them but because I think you would create a problem
that you would not be able to get out of. You say that you have
got to a line in the sand and you cannot move any further. I just
cannot see how you can draw that line. The previous experience
and the concerns of the Prison Service in Northern Ireland are
such that they do not believe that although they want to hold
that line they will be allowed to, and that is the way it is as
far as they are concerned.
Jane Kennedy: I am not sure that
that remains the way that they see it in the sense that prison
officers in Maghaberry have been working quite enthusiastically
with the governors to develop the ideas around the new regime
irrespective of the position that their union has been taking,
which has been less than enthusiastic. I wanted to ensure that
what we did in creating the new regime was not only to provide
physical resources and changes to staffing but also to make sure
that we examined every aspect of business that the prison was
undertaking to make sure that they got the support they believed
they needed, and they said that one of their difficulties was
that they could not get a time-out, that sometimes for them it
would be of real benefit to the prison to have a prisoner removed
for the prison's sake so that they could have a period in which
they could maintain good order in the prison. If it were seen
as a sanction, as part of a range of sanctions available to the
prison, and the sanction, if granted, would only be used in very
rare circumstances but nonetheless was something we would seriously
consider if we were pushed to do it, then it is intended to be
there as a deterrent, I suppose, to prisoners and also as an encouragement
to the officers and governors that we mean to help them to hold
the line. Therefore there is just a safety valve built into it.
Believe me, I do understand and appreciate the potential difficulties
that might arise from the use of it, but, having been honestly
told by governors and prison officers of their fears and that
this was one of the difficulties they knew they might face, and
being advised by them that this is something we might be able
to do to assist them, I believed it was proper for me to try to
do that.
Chairman: I am glad you have had a chance
to hear a wide range of opinions about this in a private session.
Can I just put this to you? If I were a dissident Republican and
I was in Maghaberry and I was the leader of the dissident Republican
group, I would make damn sure that I behaved badly enough to be
sent to Scotland because I know that that would give me the most
enormous amount of support outside, and I would go on taunting
you and defying you until you used this thing to take me away.
That is what they do. That is where they get recruits because
that is seen as an injustice. I would make sure that I had a wife
and five children all outside the gates unable to come and see
me. This is where we have been. I must not go on about it for
too long but I really do hope that you will take a long, hard
look at that concept because even advancing it as a concept is
going to be an incentive to them.
Q793 Mr Beggs: Since the aim would be
to remove them from having influence on other persons should you
not be making provision now for isolated units which are separate
from the main blocks of prisons so that you can take out agitators
and troublemakers?
Mr Russell: We do have a special
supervision unit in Maghaberry and it will still be functioning
and it will still be available to take prisoners.
Q794 Chairman: How many?
Mr Russell: I cannot give you
a precise number.
Q795 Chairman: Five, 10, 50?
Jane Kennedy: It is not as many
as 50. It is more like 20.
Q796 Mr Beggs: You have facilities?
Jane Kennedy: We have facilities.
Q797 Mr Beggs: You can use the most appropriate
facilities?
Mr Russell: Yes.
Jane Kennedy: And the intention
is that we would use them for prisoners that were in breach of
prison discipline. This sanction is just an extra safety valve
for the prison and it is a measure that is used in England and
Wales because they have the estate to use it. It seemed to me
that on very rare occasions if Northern Ireland should need to
use it then it would be available. It would not just be limited
to paramilitary prisoners. This is something that we would have
available to the Prison Service in Northern Ireland for all the
prisoners who are completely intractable, who completely resist
prison discipline altogether, and for some this may be a kind
of shock treatment, if you like, to get them to engage with reality.
Q798 Mr Tynan: On staffing issues, obviously,
there has been some concern expressed to this Committee about
the safety aspects as regards prisoners' families, the prisons
themselves and their employees as well. I understand that obviously
you want to have the staff in the Prison Service on site and you
want them on board and working with you to solve many of the problems
because Northern Ireland is not an easy place to resolve problems
in, and I do not mean that in any derogatory fashion, but they
have said that they need enhanced security and one of the major
catalysts as far as the Prison Service is concerned is that they
are not getting the security for their homes that they require.
Could you comment on that?
Jane Kennedy: At length, if you
wish.
Q799 Chairman: Not as long as Mr Spratt,
I promise you!
Jane Kennedy: I am sure I could,
if you would let me. There were something like 1,400 names of
prison officers in Northern Ireland which were obtained by individuals
who had got access to details of papers in Stormont House and
in Castle Buildings, and some of those papers related to prison
officer details. I think it was the Provisional IRA. As a result
of that, the police came to us and offered, because of the sheer
scale of the breach of security, to do what they would always
do in these circumstances, and that is they would take a hard
look at what intelligence they had and then make a judgment as
to the level of risk that individual was living under. There is
a scheme called the key persons protection scheme, which may well
have been developed by your goodself, Mr Chairman.
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