Examination of Witnesses (Questions 820
- 839)
WEDNESDAY 10 DECEMBER 2003
RT HON
JANE KENNEDY
MP, PETER RUSSELL
AND PETER
LEONARD
Q820 Mr Pound: I think it was over ten,
a fairly large figure. Will civilianisation and auxiliaries have
a negative impact on your ability to rotate? Or are you confident
that even with the additional provision of auxiliary staff you
will still have sufficient leeway to rotate?
Mr Leonard: The first thing is
we are trying to avoid phrases like "auxiliary" which
have very particular meanings within the Prison Service. There
is a support grade of staff we are looking to use to back-fill
prison officers. The idea is, which is the usual operational story
you hear with prison services and police services and similar
organisations, we want to get people face to face with the real
job, face to face with the prisoners in the case of prison officers,
and in order to do that and to cope with the increased numbers
of staff we will need to staff these two houses, we plan to back-fill
the operational posts which are less in need of trained prison
officers, so other sorts of staff. Some of them will have clerical
skills, for example those working in the censor's office which
does not necessarily need a trained prison officer but can be
done by a clerical person. The external gate at the prison can
be done by somebody who has had security training. We will back-fill
with them. But that is not in any way going to inhibit our ability
to rotate prison officers, in fact it enhances them a bit because
we are freeing-up more front line prison officers to work with
prisoners.
Q821 Chairman: What it does do is take
away the reserves, all those people who can come in in an emergency
and cope with a riot.
Mr Leonard: At this stage, Chairman,
and I am very conscious of that criticism, we are not talking
about reducing the number of prison officers who are available,
what we are talking about is freeing them up from non-operational
jobs to put them face to face with prisoners, so the reserve remains
at the same level. It is also true we have been very particularly
mindful—and I hope in their evidence to you the POA made
this point—of the need to have an active and operational
reserve within the establishment which is very substantial and
better than anything you will see in England, Wales or Scotland:
a reserve of staff ready to respond immediately to any problem.
Q822 Mark Tami: You will be aware, and
we have been told. that staff are accumulating a large amount
of time in lieu which they do not think they will be able to take
or it will be very difficult for them to take, caused by difficulties
with shift systems and target staffing levels. I have three points
on this. How did we get into the position we are in with this?
Do you think it is acceptable? If not, what are you going to do
about it?
Mr Russell: We began the year
I think with about 50,000 hours, and we were faced a month or
so ago with about 55, so there has been deterioration in the position
but it is not earth-shattering change. Indeed up until the summer,
Magilligan succeeded in paying back time despite low levels of
co-operation within the staff group. So it is true there are hours
owed to the staff. In my experience, most staff like to keep two
or three shifts in their back pocket against contingencies because
they never know when things might crop up. So just as the majority
of office staff who are working flexi-time will stay in credit
so they can cover themselves against some domestic upset—the
boiler bursting or the plumber needing to be called out—
Q823 Mark Tami: But this was used as
a reason for the withdrawal of goodwill. That was one of the factors.
Mr Russell: You may be better
informed on this than I am because people are not corresponding
with me on the reasons for the withdrawal of goodwill, they are
just withdrawing goodwill. We hear this noise in the background
somewhere but I would have to say on the basis of the figures
there has not been a huge deterioration this year and, as I say,
at Magilligan the Governor was paying back time and not with a
huge amount of co-operation from his workforce either.
Q824 Chairman: You say "a few shifts
in their back pocket", we had two prison officers who said
they had more than 60 days each, which they had no hope of ever
being able to claim back. That is not a few shifts in the back
pocket, is it?
Mr Russell: There will always
be some people in the normal distribution who are up at the top
end, but it is reasonable to look at the average, and if we are
talking about 50,000-odd hours over 1700 staff, it is not huge.
Q825 Mark Tami: So you do not see it
as a problem and certainly not what has triggered what has happened?
Jane Kennedy: It has not been
flagged up in any of the meetings I have had with the POA.
Mr Russell: If the POA were serious
about wanting to reduce this, it would be possible to engage with
them at establishment level about ways in which we could systematically
get time paid back to staff, but they have not.
Q826 Mark Tami: What would you like to
do in terms of compensation, financial or otherwise?
Mr Russell: No, once you start
paying for it you will never get it down.
Q827 Mark Tami: All I am saying is, if
you were looking to do something about it—
Mr Russell: As I say, once you
start paying for it you will never get it down because they will
always believe you will pay the next time, so it is self-defeating.
Q828 Chairman: I am just doing my sums
here. It is getting on for 400 hours each. That is more than a
couple of shifts in your back pocket.
Mr Russell: The change in this
year?
Q829 Chairman: I am not talking about
the change in this year but what euphemistically is known as TOIL,
which means no toil.
Mr Russell: TOIL is the language
I have been used to, but here we use AVH and ETO.
Q830 Chairman: I am sure it has got a
new name but it does not improve the situation!
Mr Russell: The change in recent
months has not been a seismic and transformational change.
Q831 Mark Tami: You are saying this has
never been raised as an issue?
Jane Kennedy: Not in the meetings
I have had with the POA, it may have been in other meetings, but
I am staggered really.
Q832 Chairman: Aside from being another
stick with which to beat you, which is probably why they have
come via us, it is nevertheless a staggering figure, is it not?
Jane Kennedy: And it is an indication
of the frustrations which are felt within the Prison Service amongst
the governors and managers who would want to engage with the POA
to talk about shift systems and work patterns which need reform.
But actually getting them to engage in meaningful discussions
has proved a difficult and elusive task.
Q833 Mark Tami: My final point was going
to be how you repair the relationship, but if some of these issues
are not even being covered that is probably not a relevant question.
Unless you have some useful points on it?
Mr Russell: There is a range of
things which we are keen to talk to the POA about because I do
not think the present situation is sustainable, what we have now
are not good employee relations so that plainly needs to move
on and we are exploring that. I do think the Chairman is out by
a factor of 10 in his arithmetic.
Q834 Chairman: How many prison officers
are there in Maghaberry?
Mr Leonard: Around 800.
Mr Russell: Chairman, I will drop
you a note afterwards with the up-to-date figures.
Q835 Chairman: Maghaberry is owed 16,669
days. I am not far out.
Mr Russell: I am not sure if we
are talking days or hours.
Q836 Chairman: Let's talk days. That
is roughly 200 days each.
Mr Russell: No.
Q837 No, 20 days each.
Mr Russell: Thank you.
Mark Tami: There you are, a massive saving
made already!
Q838 Chairman: Coming back to the question
I did not want to put before Mr Leonard arrived, we have had it
emphasised to us by both the Governor at Maghaberry and indeed
most of you the importance of enforcing prison rules as a means
of maintaining discipline and control, both for the ordinary and
the paramilitary prisoners. Do you agree with that?
Jane Kennedy: Yes.
Q839 Chairman: He said, "We have
got to put prison rules in place right across the prison and enforce
them. It is important for staff to know that they will be supported
by me if a prisoner breaches prison rules." I see lots of
nodding heads.
Jane Kennedy: Yes.
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