Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-28)
16 SEPTEMBER 2003
MR JOHN
BAXTER AND
MR RICHARD
BIRD
Q20 Mr Tynan: Do you think the survey
was comprehensive enough to come to conclusions?
Mr Baxter: I think the feeling
generally, hence the Treasury's commissioning of the Symonds Report,
was that the sort of evidence that we have been able to turn up
within the industry was not robust enough to come to firm conclusions.
What we could do with what we have available is give you signposts/pointers
about what is happening. As I understand it the University of
Ulster did spot checks at various points along the border. Statistically
you have got to question just how valid is that, but I think it
is a good signpost.
Q21 Mr Tynan: They did it between
the hours of nine o'clock in the morning and five o'clock and
the point has been made that much of the traffic is often at nighttime,
but I understand there was no survey done during the night.
Mr Baxter: It is a signpost rather
than a firm statistic, it is a picture.
Q22 Mr Tynan: There was no indication
either, was there, of the cargo that the lorries were carrying?
Mr Baxter: No, but it is difficult.
I think it clearly identified it was aggregates. It is not going
to be the higher processed aggregate, it is going to be the sub-based,
the filter material, the sort of thing they would do to build
a road on a housing estate or something like that.
Q23 Mr Tynan: That is really an assumption
you are making because there is no definite proof that it was
aggregate.
Mr Baxter: I happen to know the
people that did the survey and they are quite knowledgeable. They
are not cloistered academics, they are guys who are very practical
and they are fairly familiar with the industry. One of the gentlemen
that led on this is Secretary to the Institute of Quarrying in
Northern Ireland. So I think they probably can identify what is
an aggregate truck and what is not.
Q24 Mr Tynan: Would you accept it
is only a random snapshot?
Mr Baxter: Yes, hence the need
to get down to base rock, if I can put it that way, the need for
the Symonds Report and hopefully that will be a defining piece
of evidence. I would be very surprised if it does not support
the general indications that you are hearing from me now.
Q25 Mark Tami: Turning to Customs
and Excise, you are very critical of the way they are trying to
enforce the levy. What is preventing them from doing that and
what should they be doing?
Mr Baxter: I think it falls into
two categories. One is a lack of resources. I do not think they
have anything like the resources they need to do the job that
is required. That might be improved if we went back to the point
of having a joined-up approach. In our contact with them they
said that the three people that I have been able to identify on
the ground are actually backed up by people doing VAT and stuff
like that. The other factor is that you are actually talking about
quite a complex market. I have been involved with the aggregates
levy from the initial contact point when the Treasury and Customs
and Excise came to the industry and said they would like to set
up a contact unit to discuss what was happening. They told us
straight up they would not necessarily do what we suggested because
they had firm ideas of their own. I think we both realised by
the second meeting that what they thought was a very simple subject,
ie a stone is a stone, was very much more complex and I think
that has been borne out now. It is the classic situation where
if you turn up the magnification it gets a lot more problematic.
One of the real problems that I think Customs and Excise officers
have is understanding a very complex market. It is not just a
question of playing numbers, it is also a question of educating
the people on the ground, ie when they are looking at something
do they recognise what they are looking at. It takes very educated
petrologists to look at a stone and see whether it is shale or
greywacke.
Q26 Chairman: Or what?
Mr Baxter: Gritstone.
Q27 Mr Swire: Given your remarks
about Customs, would you say that it was possible or necessary
for Customs to track the aggregates from the Republic of Ireland
to the point at which they are commercially exploited?
Mr Baxter: No, they only need
to identify the point of commercial exploitation, that is the
Act. I am not a lawyer and I am not going to pretend to be, but
all the comment I get is it is a brilliant piece of legal writing
hence, to avoid it being a cross-border tax, it is the point about
exploitation—
Q28 Mr Swire: How easy would you
say it was for Customs to distinguish virgin aggregate from processed
product or recycled material when they are monitoring imports?
Mr Baxter: I am afraid there is
not a simple answer to that. It depends on the product. If it
is a recycled aggregate in the form of crushed concrete it is
quite easy for somebody that is familiar with the trade. If it
is a type one subbase, that is the support layer at the bottom
of a road that has been dug up and re-screened and recycled, it
is probably almost impossible for anyone, even an expert.
Chairman: Mr Baxter, Mr Bird, thank you
very much. We will now go local. Please feel free to stay and
listen to what the others have to say if you would like to do
so.
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