Examination of Witness (Questions 60-79)
16 SEPTEMBER 2003
MR NIGEL
LUCAS
Q60 Mr Tynan: You say that your organisation
represents 500 individual construction firms in the province and
that is 80% of all construction work. How does your organisation
view the unauthorised extraction of aggregates? Do you advise
your members to verify the origin of the aggregates that is used
in construction?
Mr Lucas: First of all, we are
as concerned about unauthorised and illicit operations as our
colleagues in the QPA sector. The Construction Employers' Federation
is an organisation that promotes and represents best practice
in the industry. Obviously a lot of our members who are legitimate
operators are facing competition from the unlawful or unlicensed
operations and that is creating an unlevel playing field in the
industry. As far as advice to members goes, you have already heard
that some of the public sector clients are now asking for declarations
to be signed and we have already given advice to our members that
they must ensure that these declarations are signed.
Q61 Mr Tynan: Do you advise your
companies that they should verify the origin of the aggregate
they use?
Mr Lucas: Where the declarations
exist we do, yes.
Q62 Mr Tynan: What about where there
is no declaration?
Mr Lucas: While we can give best
practice advice to put that into practice, we have no control
over that.
Q63 Mr Tynan: How do you think we
should address the problem? Should it be done through the individual
companies that you represent or should there be another way?
Mr Lucas: I think it is a combination
of matters. First of all, as you say it is a question of the individual
companies ensuring that as bona fide operators the aggregates
have come from legitimate operations, but it is also a question
of compliance and enforcement. I think that both the Planning
Service and Customs and Excise are significantly under-resourced
to ensure that the tax is being applied in a fair way.
Q64 Mr Tynan: If 80% of the construction
business in the province decided to operate on those guidelines
would that not ensure that legitimate producers of aggregate were
able to continue as they are?
Mr Lucas: If it was a perfect
world I think that would be correct.
Q65 Mr Tynan: But it is not.
Mr Lucas: Correct.
Q66 Mr Tynan: We have asked this
question before. In your view are the imports mostly processed
or is it virgin aggregates?
Mr Lucas: Again I would have to
refer to the evidence provided by my colleagues in the QPA and
say I think it is a combination of both, but identifying them
is an extremely difficult exercise.
Q67 Mr Tynan: So at present there
are no measures in place to monitor and verify the use of imported
aggregates to your knowledge?
Mr Lucas: Not to my knowledge.
Q68 Mr Tynan: Should there be?
Mr Lucas: I think it would help
to address the issue.
Q69 Mr Tynan: Is there any way we
could bring that about?
Mr Lucas: You could probably do
it through enhanced enforcement and compliance.
Q70 Mr Bailey: Earlier on you said
that public sector construction projects were losing £21
million. Have you noticed any reduction in the level of public
sector construction projects arising from this?
Mr Lucas: No. I mentioned earlier
that we have actually had announcements about increasing the enhancement
of the public sector through the programme, but my earlier comments
referred to the fact that the "tax take" obviously will
increase. That will mean less in the capital budgets to address
some of the backlog in the infrastructure programmes.
Q71 Mr Bailey: Is there not an element
of circulation here in that the £21 million goes out but
it could well be incorporated in the extra level of spending?
Mr Lucas: That is precisely the
point.
Q72 Reverend Smyth: We are living
in an age of recycling, the Government and local authorities are
encouraging people to recycle, but is it not a fact that in procurement
policies the Government rarely, if at all, encourages recycling
in the construction industry?
Mr Lucas: In Northern Ireland
I would endorse that 100%. If you look at most of the large industrial
cities in Great Britain, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, there are
lots of opportunities for recycling, knocking down old buildings,
recycling products. Northern Ireland is essentially a rural economy,
an agriculture based economy. Belfast and Londonderry would probably
be the largest of the developed cities and there simply are not
enough opportunities and recycled material to make this an effective
policy.
Q73 Reverend Smyth: Is it not equally
true that there is a place for changing the specifications in
some cases to allow that which is available to be used?
Mr Lucas: Yes. I think recycling
and the whole issue of waste management is something that lies
fully within the control of Government here. The Central Procurement
Directorate that has recently been established I believe should
be at the forefront of driving this issue of recycling and waste
management in Northern Ireland forward and the way to do that
is simply through specifying it in its procurement documents.
Q74 Reverend Smyth: Your first answer
would have implied that it is the lack of quality recycled products
here that would be a greater hindrance than high specifications.
Mr Lucas: I would say it is both
issues. There is no doubt a lack of opportunities to recycle but
there must also be a greater lead taken by Government in its procurement
documentation to offer incentives to recycle.
Q75 Mark Tami: You have touched on
some of these points with the previous question. You have talked
about what the Government should be doing, but what are you doing
as an industry to encourage the use of recycled materials?
Mr Lucas: There is very little
that can be done individually to encourage recycling. I think
the best way to promote this is through procurement policies.
The industry is beginning to look at issues of best practice and
of environmental management.
Q76 Mark Tami: Are you lobbying the
Government to say that they should do so in public sector projects?
Mr Lucas: Oh, I beg your pardon.
Yes, we have had a number of meetings with the recently established
Central Procurement Directorate and again the procurement aspect
of their policies on recycling has been one of the subjects that
we have talked about on a number of occasions.
Q77 Mark Tami: So you would stress
to them that they should say X% from recycled material?
Mr Lucas: That is right.
Q78 Mark Tami: Is that falling on
deaf ears?
Mr Lucas: No, it is not. It has
been welcomed. It is an issue that has to be developed and explored
further, but I have to say that the Procurement Directorate have
been most willing to listen to what we have to say to them.
Q79 Mark Tami: The Government requires
major public sector projects to certify that they do comply with
the levy. Do you think this should be widened out to all non-government
projects and how would you see that operating?
Mr Lucas: If we could achieve
that then it would obviously level the playing field. I think
in the private sector it would be very difficult to apply that
without actually having some kind of a compliance officer inspecting
every single scheme which in reality would not happen.
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