Examination of Witnesses (Questions 229-239)
MR MURRAY
WATT AND
MS HILARY
KYLE
27 APRIL 2004
Q229 Chairman: Ms Kyle, Mr Watt, you
are very welcome. We noticed that you were watching us from the
back of the public gallery so you will not be surprised, therefore,
that our first question is similar to the last question we asked
the Housing Executive. The presence of the DSD, the Housing Executive
and the Federation of Housing Associations on your management
committee may lead some to say that there is a lack of independence
within the project. How would you answer those criticisms?
Ms Kyle: Not to contradict what
our colleague has already said to you, we would say that our track
record speaks for itself in that first of all, yes, the Department,
the Housing Executive and the Federation are represented on our
management committee, however we do have community representation
on that committee as well. There are three members drawn from
the Housing Community Network as was briefly explained. Our strategic
plan where we are subject to three year review, we have just finished
that review in fact, includes not only interviews with Housing
Executive staff but with community staff as well and they drew
the same conclusion as they have done in previous years, that
we continue to provide an independent role. We do not have a hidden
agenda, when we go to work with any community group we are working
to the community's agenda and we ensure that they consult with
the wider community. We are very open about what we do. We agree
with every district office every year what groups we are working
with and what areas we are going to be working with within that
district. We act as an independent broker in that we are trying
to explain to the community groups exactly the policies and procedures
that the Executive and other bodies have in place, but then also
trying to explain their needs to the bodies and, indeed, the Housing
Executive. It was interesting to hear that on occasions we are
seen to be on the other side of the fence as opposed to being
in the middle. Just recently we pulled together some research
from surveys that we do with our groups on an annual basis. There
are 450 groups working with the Housing Executive on a regular
basis and we would have something in the region of 580 who we
would be providing advice to on a different level. When we carried
out research of the groups we are working with on a regular basis,
the majority came back and said that we did continue to provide
that independent role. As I said, we really do feel that our track
record speaks for itself and that we do provide an independent
role.
Q230 Chairman: You have mentioned your
450 groups related to Housing Executive properties, does that
mean that most of your work is focused on Housing Executive tenants?
Could you talk us through the work that you do with other sectors?
Ms Kyle: Certainly. Maybe if I
can just explain briefly as an overview what we do and then we
can look at what groups we are working with. Our mission statement
is to achieve meaningful community participation in the social
housing sector by developing groups and promoting effective involvement.
Our origin goes back to the 1970s from a project in Ballymena
and it grew from there. We have a staff of 20 people in the organisation
with 11 of those being field workers throughout Northern Ireland
and we also have specialist staff as well. Because we are funded
from the Housing Executive and DSD, yes, our work in the main
would be with community and tenant groups. We would not always
say it is tenant groups because within estates compared with the
house sales there are a number of owner-occupiers on the estates
and we would work with the entire community as opposed to just
the tenant reps. Recently we undertook a pilot with one housing
association and that was presented to the Federation for consideration.
However, we would not have the resources to be working with housing
associations in the same sort of role that we are doing now and
if that was going to be pursued then we would obviously have to
look for the resources to back that up. We provide not only funding
and information, we provide training courses and support to the
groups throughout the Housing Community Network. If I can briefly
explain what that is. The Housing Community Network is a unique
framework of the Housing Executive, of which other organisations
would be quite envious. They have a method of engaging with the
tenants and the community reps throughout all stages. Every community
group within Northern Ireland who have any comings and goings
with the Housing Executive are able to elect two representatives
to attend what is called a district Housing Community Network
and they meet with district staff to look at district issues.
They do not look at individual issues; there is a separate mechanism
for dealing with that. In turn, they elect representatives to
attend an area meeting looking at budget programmes, schemes,
and meeting with the area staff. In turn they elect three people
to sit on what is called the central Housing Community Network
and they meet with people like our colleagues who were here this
morning, they meet with assistant directors on a regular basis.
They meet monthly. Really they are used as a consultative forum
for the Housing Executive. We would have a central role in supporting
that sort of work as well.
Q231 Chairman: You have described a system
which reaches out far beyond simply rented housing tenants, similar
perhaps to some of the area committees that local government has
created within GB. Does that mean that you are providing a service
that perhaps is missing from the general provision of community
services within Northern Ireland, do you believe?
Ms Kyle: We would always say that
we add value to what is already there. There are plenty of other
providers of support and what we try to do is complement what
is happening as well rather than duplicating.
Q232 Chairman: But focusing on housing?
Ms Kyle: Focusing on housing in
so much as housing is not an island. Our colleagues this morning,
I think, indicated a number of other projects that the community
and tenant reps would be involved with. Our role would be very
much to support them on these working groups, like the health
action zones, fuel poverty and all those sorts of things.
Mr Watt: Maybe I could just add
something. One additional element to that is that we are very
much in support of what district housing staff in the Housing
Executive are being asked to do as their particular agenda has
been broadening in the role and their responsibilities, whether
it is community safety, community relations, urban renewal or
neighbourhood renewal. The work they are doing with Government
community groups, I think we are very much in support of that.
Our agenda and our expertise has broadened as a consequence, so
that is why it is perhaps a bit broader than simply the public
sector housing tenants.
Q233 Chairman: Do you have geographical
coverage across the whole of Northern Ireland?
Ms Kyle: We do indeed. We work
with community groups through every district office. Every district
office, in fact, has one of these district Housing Community Networks
and we are represented on every one of those as well. We would
have a very close working relationship with the districts and
the staff, the fieldwork staff on the group. We meet annually,
me, them and the district manager, to agree what we are doing
in the areas so those relationships are cemented.
Chairman: Excellent.
Q234 Mr Luke: Following what the Chairman
has been asking, are you satisfied with the input tenants and
communities have into the current methods for determining the
need for social and affordable housing?
Mr Watt: I think one of the things
that we hear frequently at district Housing Community Network
meetings is probably the fact that tenants and community reps
feel that they are not as involved as they might otherwise be.
I think the determination of housing need is a fairly complex
and sometimes bureaucratic mechanism. When it comes down to the
level of local communities, I think the dividing line between
what is need, what is aspiration and what is demand is a lot more
blurred than perhaps would be the case in official circles. I
think as well that when we look at the urban and the rural geography
of Northern Ireland it is a very, very complicated arena. I think
the housing market being as segregated as it currently is causes
stresses and strains at local levels which sometimes are not reflected
in housing needs assessment. I think even within communities themselves
there are divisions which impact on housing need and sometimes
these require local housing managers to step outside the box to
address those issues. There has been quite a lot of reference
to the net stock model which has been geared towards identifying
the bigger picture, the larger scale. It probably is not geared
up for identifying local need but there needs to be some mechanism
that does do that and does do that perhaps with a bit more openness
and a bit more transparency.
Q235 Mr Luke: Your comments almost confirm
the views expressed to us when we visited and travelled around
some of the areas of Belfast during our last visit. Have you any
idea what kind of model could be put in place to improve that
input?
Mr Watt: One of the mechanisms
which the Housing Executive uses is the District Housing Plan
which is produced on an annual basis for each of the 26 district
council areas. I think one of the things which perhaps could be
a useful addition would be to extend the actual purpose, the actual
scope of the District Housing Plan by involving the local elected
representatives, local voluntary housing sector, local communities
in drawing up the plan rather than simply just responding to it.
I think a plan which had more input would have more ownership
and probably would be a more accurate reflection of what people
understand housing need to be within that locality. Certainly
I would encourage a greater and an extended role for the District
Housing Plan planning process which would be more inclusive and,
as I say, people would have more ownership of it and have more
commitment to it.
Q236 Mr Hepburn: Do you think housing
associations are capable of providing social housing in high demand
areas?
Mr Watt: That is probably a question
best answered by the housing associations themselves. There is
no doubt that the housing association movement right across the
UK, but particularly in Northern Ireland, has done an excellent
job in providing the type of accommodation that no other provider
could either in the public or the private sector. I think there
are—and this Committee no doubt has heard plenty of evidence—plenty
of views with regard to the difficulties facing the housing associations
building in high demand areas, whether it is the cost of land,
whether it is land availability or site availability, whether
it is the planning processes or competition for development. I
think all of these things probably mitigate the voluntary housing
sector but there is no doubt that they certainly have a large
commitment to providing the general needs housing now that the
new build responsibility has been handed on to them.
Q237 Mr Hepburn: What do you think the
Government can do to meet housing targets? Do you think possibly
one option would be to return the new build programme to the Northern
Ireland Housing Executive?
Mr Watt: I will take that second
question first, if I may. I do not know if it is realistic to
return the new build responsibility to the Housing Executive either
in whole or in part. Certainly our experience of what we are hearing
at the district Housing Community Network is that perhaps it would
be desirable either in whole or in part. I think on the actual
question of what Government can do, there is probably a bit of
scope for a lot more creative thinking in terms of facilitating
the voluntary sector within high demand or difficult areas. I
recall a number of years ago attending a conference in Dublin
and one of the local TDs was offering a number of views with regard
to how they would see the voluntary housing sector movement having
more input and more contribution on the land in and around Dublin.
Whilst these figures are most definitely out of date and probably
inaccurate, I will now quote them just to give you an illustration.
Agricultural land in Northern Portmarnock on the outskirts of
Dublin was about, what, £30,000 an acre. If it had been rezoned
to housing it would probably increase to about three-quarters
of a million pounds per acre. One of the things that was suggested
was that by using the tax system you could tax that capital increase
to the extent—
Q238 Mark Tami: Can I just interrupt,
how much did you say it was worth an acre?
Mr Watt: £30,000 of agricultural
land because it is quite poor—
Q239 Mark Tami: £30,000 an acre.
Mr Watt: I think it had been translated
for us in the north at that particular time and from euro to sterling.
Mr Pound: A startlingly high figure for
agriculture.
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