Examination of Witnesses (Questions 340-348)
PROFESSOR CHRIS
PARIS AND
MR PADDY
GRAY
15 JUNE 2004
Q340 Chairman: You will forgive me for
not providing the source but it has been suggested that if there
was an expectation at new build for lifetime homes then the cost
per property would be less than £1,000 per home and that
an extra bit of timber, a bigger hole in the wall space, is not
necessarily a build cost, the provision of plumbing which can
be later adapted is very little in terms of build cost, so whilst
we say it is unrealistic, if there was a policy that ensured all
new build was adaptable, the cost would not be that great, would
it?
Professor Paris: Absolutely. That
was the view that your colleague came back on saying you can introduce
lifetime homes, but that does not mean that every home has a chair
lift, that means that there is a capacity for adaptation and subsequent
unadaptation in dwellings. It is a design issue. I do not think
the costs are huge.
Mr Gray: I was going to come in
on that. Before you came in there, Chairman, I was going to talk
about the Chartered Institute of Housing study that was carried
out on lifetime homes in Northern Ireland and I think that suggested
costs as low as £500, if my recollection is right.
Q341 Chairman: That was the one I was
referring to.
Mr Gray: That depends on the nature
of the disability. Chris is quite right in saying that we are
not going to put chair lifts in every single dwelling but there
are a number of adaptations and those adaptations, for instance
a downstairs toilet, would suffice for many people with angina,
people who want to live downstairs in a family home, and we have
quite a lot of family homes still in existence. The nature of
the disability would dictate the type of adaptation that was done
uniformly. Certainly in social housing they have adopted those
lifetime home standards. Whether or not it would be feasible,
at a cost of £500 or so it would not be unrealistic to introduce
that across the board.
Q342 Chairman: When the population of
the world started to become taller we soon adapted doors to meet
our needs. There are still some 15th century homes where you have
to duck to go through the door but new build is adequate for us
to live in. Surely we are not talking huge amounts of cost there.
Professor Paris: Wimbledon is
installing wider seats because we are not as slim as we once were.
Q343 Chairman: Absolutely. We are on
to the final furlong, you will be pleased to know. I have a very
quick question on targeting social need. It may be a bit unfair
asking Mr Gray this question, but do you have any concerns about
the performance of the Housing Executive and/or housing associations
in their role of targeting social need?
Mr Gray: I do not personally have
any objections to the way they actually target social need. I
know the TSN standards that are set within the framework for Northern
Ireland and, given the nature of the tenants who live in Housing
Executive and housing association dwellings, the very high levels
of Housing Benefit dependency and the acute need that many of
those tenants have, obviously they are successful in dealing with
those areas of need. To widen it further, we have a specific problem
in Northern Ireland where we have two communities in co-existence
and in some cases that may well stifle certain areas where they
have to target need or they are stifled by territorial issues
in the sense that there may be low demand and low need in one
area but they cannot actually build into those areas. North Belfast
would be a classic example of that where there are physical separations
between estates and being able to target need in certain areas.
Province-wide there are what we call peace lines in the mind whereby
people operate different behavioural patterns depending on which
community they come from and whether or not they can target uniformly
throughout the Province is something that is stifled by that particular
problem with two communities and trying to house two communities.
Certainly I know from working in the housing association movement
and looking at the nature of the tenants the Housing Executive
targets that at the moment they are housing people in need and
would like to house more people given the length of the waiting
lists.
Professor Paris: I undertook some
work through the university together with a senior management
consultant from England on the topic of targeting social need
for the Housing Executive. This was three years ago. They were
very conscious of the issue and were making every effort to ensure
that every part of their work was highly focused on aspects of
social need and they had proofed across all of their activities
that concentration. I am very confident that the Housing Executive
is extremely well focused.
Q344 Chairman: Housing associations?
Professor Paris: To my knowledge,
not all housing associations are necessarily so well focused.
One of the issues that one has to bear in mind is that housing
associations come from lots of different bases, some are very
small, very much community based, so they cannot operate on that
same sort of basis. I have no doubt whatsoever that the larger
associations, particularly the Province-wide or metropolitan housing
associations, are also very much following the same philosophy,
not least because the Housing Executive, DSD and local politicians
would not let them not be.
Q345 Chairman: My last question, unless
my colleagues indicate otherwise, is in relation to what has been
described as Catholic/Protestant housing need. There does seem
to be a difference between the evidence given to us from the University
and suggestions that have been made by some of our witnesses in
as much as most people were able to identify issues related to
North Belfast where there is obviously a need for housing in one
part of the community whereas in another part of the community
the needs were different, they were not about housing supply,
they were about need for modernisation, need for improvement.
The University study took a wider look at Catholic/Protestant
housing need and suggested that across Northern Ireland there
were differing needs depending on family types, depending on the
size of the property. Would you still hold out that there are
differing needs in terms of Protestant housing and Catholic housing?
Professor Paris: Absolutely. The
terms "Protestant housing need" and "Catholic housing
need" are a bit sloganistic. They are indicating there is
something there and it was never meant to suggest that Protestants
only need rehabilitation and Catholics only need more housing,
that is a gross oversimplification. In our study we were looking
at demographic trends and some social aspects related to those
demographic trends. When we looked at sub-regional data aggregates,
what came out very clearly was that there are different demographies
in different places that reflect the different population structures
of the Catholic population and the Protestant population such
that, for example, average household size in Northern Ireland
in the last Census was 2.65; in parts of East Belfast and that
area where there is a disproportionately high Protestant population
average household size is 2.4; in parts of the west and the south
where there is a disproportionately higher Catholic population
average household size is 2.8 and 2.9. We know that the great
majority of people who will be here in ten years' time are here
already just 10 years younger, so there are different trajectories
that those populations will follow regardless of what else happens.
I do believe that there are significant differences across Northern
Ireland as a whole and that the different demographic patterns
partly explain incidences of hotspots and relatively low demand.
I think that work should be taken further, but then, as an academic,
I would always be looking for the next research grant. I would
be very happy to take that work further.
Q346 Chairman: I think that is a very
valid point. We need to be very honest about the differences in
faith, culture and religion that people's differing lifestyles
will have on their differing needs. There is a similar issue in
GB in respect of the Bangladeshi community who are more family
focused around the elders of the family staying within the household
where there is a greater need for larger properties because of
the different generations that will live within the family home.
Any study in Northern Ireland along those lines would be very
welcome.
Professor Paris: Yes, indeed,
but for many years nobody talked about the conflict. It was as
if public policy could continue, and often did continue very effectively,
managing in a difficult divided society. It was in the North Belfast
area that I think the terms started to be used by public agencies
recognising that there are many colours in society, not just the
uniform grey. It is a recognition, as you rightly say, that there
are issues to be addressed. It is a step along the way of addressing
those issues and, therefore, I believe it is a positive step.
Mr Gray: Chris is right that for
a long time it was not discussed, it was just a natural formation
of the population that Catholics lived in Catholic areas and Protestants
lived in Protestant areas and very much more so in social housing.
What we have had in Northern Ireland is not just the past period
of troubles, which was a long period, but we have had a number
of those over the last 100 years and many academics have traced
what they call a ratchet effect in the sense that people may live
together after a period of conflict but not in the same way as
they would have done prior to that period of conflict and that
has become much more acute. Even now, although we have had a "ceasefire"
since 1994, we still have very, very heavily segregated communities.
There are something like 400 people on the waiting list who are
looking to live in mixed communities and I know the Housing Executive
is addressing that at present, but in the main people do not want
to live in those communities. That has become an issue. I think
the catalyst was the report that was produced in 1998 by the Policy
Research Unit which very much recognised the different traditions,
recognised the housing conditions and so forth, and since that
time the Housing Executive have taken stock of that and have begun
to monitor their estates. My personal view would be do not force
integration. There are problems with that in the sense of violence
and people not wanting to live together and in times of troubles,
like the Marching Season or whatever, people will move back into
those areas.
Q347 Chairman: What we are talking about
is making sure that our future policies are reflecting the change
in demographic need in its totality. I would imagine that more
significant than any issues related to the fact that there is
need for Protestant housing and Catholic housing would be the
fact that there is a demand for more single living in both communities
in terms of young people and elders. Would that be fair?
Mr Gray: I think that the current
waiting list is 44% who are single people. How that is broken
down I am not sure but in general there is a newly emerging demographic
sector there that needs housing and traditionally our housing
has been family housing.
Q348 Chairman: Gentlemen, is there any
question we have not asked you that you expected to be asked?
Professor Paris: There was one
issue that I mentioned in the Schools' submission that I would
urge you to think about, which is the distinctive relationship
between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic in that it is
increasingly my view that what is emerging is more of an all Ireland
housing market than Northern Ireland as part of the UK housing
market. There are interesting differences, not least here, because
if you travel three to four miles you can see new suburbs of Derry/Londonderry,
depending on what your Committee in its wisdom wishes to call
this place, that are actually in County Donegal and there are
other issues to do with questions such as the rating of second
homes. I know that is a live issue across the water, the view
is taken that second home owners should be charged either full
rate or nearer full rate. There would be an equity issue in Northern
Ireland because many Protestants have their second homes in North
Antrim whereas many Catholics have their second homes across the
border where they do not have to pay rates. There are a number
of issues to do with eligibility for social housing, different
finance systems for both capital expenditure on social housing
and for the continued support to residents on low income in social
housing. Some of the issues in Northern Ireland are in a context
that may differ significantly from other parts of the United Kingdom.
Mr Gray: I would like to address
the issue of who will deliver and manage social housing in the
future in Northern Ireland particularly given the current review
of public administration that is taking place and is due to report
early next year. Will local councils, or a reduced number of local
councils, have the capacity to take back some of the powers that
they had, say, 30 years ago? I know those issues are being debated
at the moment and the Committee might want to address themselves
further on that review that is ongoing on how that will relate
to the future management and delivery of social housing. Secondly,
the housing association movement and the way that the development
programme has been spread out in the past, has that been spread
out appropriately, have smaller associations been squeezed out,
particularly community based associations? Is there a need to
revise policies on how housing associations are formed? Other
than the Rural Housing Association, we have not had any housing
associations formed over the last 25 years, is that healthy for
development of communities, for community based issues? The other
point I made in my submission was the increased competition coming
from other areas, other parts of the country.
Chairman: Gentlemen, you have been very
helpful both in the written evidence and today in your verbal
evidence. We thank you, your evidence will assist us in terms
of our report.
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