Examination of Witnesses (Questions 420-435)
RT HON
JOHN SPELLAR
MP, MR DAVID
CROTHERS AND
MR JEROME
BURNS
30 JUNE 2004
Q420 Reverend Smyth: That is to be welcomed,
because there is always the possibility of ex-Northern Ireland
Housing Executive stock sold to the tenant and sold on to the
private sector. They do not normally follow through with the same
degree of oversight as the public sector has done. In that connection,
is there any evidence to suggest that housing benefit is supporting
high-quality private rented sector accommodation at the expense
of good-quality public sector accommodation, or even the reverse:
supporting poor private sector accommodation at the expense of
good-quality public sector accommodation?
Mr Spellar: There is quite a movement
backwards and forwards, and there is some evidence of tenants
leaving social housing to enter private sector accommodation.
Some of that will also be stimulated by crackdowns on anti-social
behaviour in housing association and Housing Executive properties.
That is why I referred to the need to keep control of that sort
of behaviour within the private rented sectors as well. By the
way, this is not a problem unique to Northern Ireland. Colleagues
around the table probably experience similar problems in England,
Wales and Scotland—that these are, much more broadly, problems
on estates. However, we are doing some work to look at that and
also to look at the relationship between the private rented sector
and the social security system. We will also be doing some case
studies on it. I will be taking a keen interest, and I will be
happy and indeed keen to share that with the Committee in the
future. The other area we have to look at is the extent to which
housing benefits to private rented accommodation is firming up,
buoying up or over-stimulating the private sector market as well.
I am talking about the house price levels and the extent to which
that might be underpinning it. I think that we will need to be
examining that—which ties in with the original basis of
your question.
Q421 Reverend Smyth: I certainly welcome
the realisation that we are the same sort of people. Sometimes
we think that Northern Ireland is different from everywhere else,
but it is a reflection of the whole nation in that sense. There
is one difference, of course. It has been suggested that in areas
such as protection-for-tenancy deposit schemes, and the use of
a housing health and safety rating system, the Northern Ireland
legislation is weak compared to that introduced in England and
Wales. What consideration has been given to strengthening the
legislation in Northern Ireland in these areas?
Mr Spellar: We do not have any
immediate plans to adopt the system, I have to say. We are currently
monitoring the situation in England. We will make an evaluation
of it. In the interim, however, the Housing Executive has been
asked to carry out a number of pilot exercises to determine the
potential impact of the system on the grants budget. That is on
the housing, health and safety rating system. On the tenancy deposit
schemes, at present two schemes are operated by the voluntary
sector provide assistance for homeless people and people accommodated
in hostels, to enable them to obtain housing in the private rented
sector by acting as guarantors. However, there are no plans to
introduce legislation in this area at the moment.
Q422 Mr Luke: Moving to the planning
side, what difficulties have been identified in relation with
the use of the planning system? For example, application of Article
40 to encourage or require the delivery of sufficient numbers
of affordable and social housing in Northern Ireland?
Mr Spellar: I will pass this to
one of the officials.
Mr Burns: We cannot necessarily
speak for The Planning Service, because it belongs to a different
department. Let us just say that the planning system—indeed,
the very concept of having a planning system—will have an
impact on affordability and house availability. Any system that
restricts or places restrictions on where a development can take
place, how large or how small that development can be, or the
levels of density there can be within that development, will always
have an impact on affordability. The Planning Service, and the
Department for Regional Development that determine planning policy,
takes account of the impact of any proposals it may have on affordability,
but it also has to look at the wider picture—the impact
of development on the environment and on other such issues—and
there will be times when these two will conflict. The Department
for Regional Development is currently working on Planning Policy
Statement 12. That is seen as the mechanism for delivering affordable
housing in the future. They are still working on that. There is
a bit of difficulty between the Department for Regional Development
and the Department for the Environment, because it will be the
department ultimately that will have to have the operational responsibility
for the policies that DRD has in PPS12. But we and the Housing
Executive are both working together with DRD in order to try to
ensure that, when PPS12 is finalised, it has an appropriate mechanism
in it—to deliver more land for affordable and social housing.
Q423 Mr Luke: Much has been made of the
PPS12 and I know there has been a delay in this. Do you not feel
that the failure to deliver it so far will have a negative effect
on the delivery of social and affordable housing?
Mr Burns: Needless to say, we
in our department would like to see PPS12 out as quickly as possible,
because we do see it as a facilitator in helping to deliver affordable
housing. I cannot say anything more, other than that we are working
with the DRD in order to try to make sure that they can meet their
timescale on it.
Q424 Mr Luke: There has also been this
question of the delay in delivering, or the further slippage in
delivering, the area plan programme, which many people see as
a very useful tool.
Mr Spellar: You mean the Belfast
area plan?
Q425 Mr Luke: Yes. Is that also causing
you concerns? Is that acceptable delay?
Mr Spellar: My colleague, the
DoE Minister, is committed to producing the plan in the late autumn,
but I think that we have to recognise some of the complexities.
There is a high level of objections, as you might imagine. It
covers about 700,000 people. It is six district councils and it
is 38% of Northern Ireland's population. It is not an insignificant
undertaking. It covers a well developed area, and one in which
there is a considerable number of already established interests.
It is one which will inevitably create quite a bit of controversy
and attention. However, we are moving on with it and we do hope
to produce that in the autumn.
Q426 Mr Luke: This may be a question
for another department, but is there a risk that developments
in planning policy might reduce the availability of affordable
housing for first-time buyers and thus increase the demand for
social housing programmes?
Mr Spellar: That is a danger with
planning policies anyway, depending on what priority is given;
also, quite simply, how much land is available for housing and
therefore whether more expensive housing can tend to bid up the
prices for that housing. It is one to which we are very much alert.
You will remember that, earlier in my evidence, I was referring
to the requests from a whole number of local authorities to increase
the allocation of land for housing, because they recognised that
pressures on land were leading to rising prices, and that was
feeding through to the house price market. They were concerned
about the ability of their communities to sustain growth and,
at the same time, the ability of youngsters to stay in the area
in which they had grown up. So I think there is a recognition
of that, and these planning policies are obviously an intrinsic
part of it.
Q427 Chairman: Minister, you kindly reminded
us earlier that your responsibilities cover both DSD and DRD.
Is this one of those areas where we could ask you to use your
influence or to help to get an earlier release of PPS12? Certainly
throughout this inquiry there have been many comments saying,
"It will be very beneficial, but we want it soon".
Mr Spellar: I will consult the
Minister responsible.
Q428 Reverend Smyth: I have always hesitated
to deal with constituency issues in these circumstances, but twice
the Minister has referred to south Belfast. We have a situation,
in an area where there is a cry for social housing, where the
Housing Executive owns the land, and where we understand that
a rebuild, replacing high-rise flats—which were a source
of problems—would not be blocking out the other Housing
Executive houses. Despite those undertakings, there is a planning
scheme going ahead which is going up to eight storeys. They have
managed to placate one resident by bringing it down to a lower
level to just, as we say in Ulster, the "forenest" house.
Surely where there is a requirement for affordable housing, the
Housing Executive should not necessarily be selling it off to
private developers to make a packet out of it, irrespective of
what happens to people?
Mr Spellar: This is a slightly
vexed situation, as Reverend Smyth knows. Indeed, the first developer
actually fell out of the scheme after he had started it. I have
had representations, as he is aware, from the residents and the
local MLA. He will also know that I have been instrumental in
arranging a meeting between the Housing Executive and the MLA
to deal with this, and I think that there are further discussions
taking place. I think that it is probably better that I do not
go much beyond that in this response, but this matter has been
very forcibly drawn to my attention, and indeed we have been getting
discussions to take place to try to resolve them.
Reverend Smyth: I would have got my knuckles
rapped if I had not raised it!
Q429 Mark Tami: Turning to standards,
who is responsible for setting standards for new build social
housing, particularly in respect of issues such as sustainability
and energy efficiency?
Mr Spellar: We have been monitoring
the work of the Sustainable Buildings Task Group, and they have
not yet developed a code for that. In Northern Ireland it is the
Department of the Environment's Environmental Policy Division
that is tasked with developing policy and drafting legislation
on a broad range of environmental issues, and which takes the
lead in implementing a code for sustainable building when it will
be developed—but obviously in consultation with other departments.
Q430 Mark Tami: The code for sustainable
building has been adopted in GB. Are you looking at just moving
that across, or do you think there is something that needs to
be different?
Mr Spellar: I understand that
the Sustainable Buildings Task Group's report was launched on
17 May this year. It recommended the production of a unified code
for sustainable building, to bring together best practice and
to raise standards, and also the formation of a joint venture
body to develop and establish that code.
Q431 Mark Tami: Are you looking at extending
the Lifetime Home Standard to the private sector in Northern Ireland?
If you are, what impact do you think that will have?
Mr Spellar: This sounds like "pass
the parcel", does it not? This is the responsibility of the
Department of Finance and Personnel, who have responsibility for
building regulations. What they intend to do is review the building
regulations for Northern Ireland in 2005. I am advised that consideration
of the Lifetime Home Standard will be included in this. Our department
has supported and stimulated debate in this area, organising and
contributing to conferences on this subject. Frankly, we would
welcome the extension of the Lifetime Home Standard to private
sector housing.
Q432 Mark Tami: Taking on board the potential
for the need for adaptations, which could have quite an impact?
Mr Spellar: I think that the code
itself would be for new build or for major refurbishment. I look
for reassurance on that.
Mr Crothers: New build in this
instance?
Q433 Mark Tami: Yes.
Mr Crothers: All our social housing
is built to Lifetime Home Standard. We are certainly encouraging
the private sector to go down that route, because we are aware
of the cost of adapting a new build house to Lifetime Home Standard
is only between £200 to £500 or £600.
Mr Spellar: When it is built in
the initial stages. It is the retro-fitting costs on existing
buildings which can be quite substantial. That is why we introduced
it, I think in 2001, as the basic standard for all the new developments
to be undertaken by housing associations; but we also believe
that it would be of benefit for private sector housing.
Q434 Chairman: It would certainly be
a huge boost to Northern Ireland's disabled community, who raised
this with us very recently. At the moment, they see the choices
as being restricted, and an extension of the Lifetime Home Standard
to the private sector would give them far more confidence in being
able to have the same choice.
Mr Spellar: I think it is also
worth putting on record, Chairman, that it is estimated that about
£30 million a year is spent annually on adapting property
in Northern Ireland—reinforcing the point that retro-fitting,
as in almost every other form of building, is far more expensive
than designing in at the initial construction stage.
Q435 Chairman: We have moved on very
well, but I still have one question that I want to put to you,
Minister. That is in respect of interaction in the housing market
between Northern Ireland and the Republic. The Committee was recently
in Derry and the overspill for Derry, as you would expect, now
takes in quite a large area of County Donegal. What consideration
has been given to that interaction of the housing markets between
Northern Ireland and the Republic, and what impact will it have
on your policy?
Mr Spellar: It is certainly true
to say that in both jurisdictions there has been a considerable
increase in house prices. For example, one of the issues that
led me to issue the consultation paper about building in the countryside,
single unit developments, was precisely an easement on regulations
in the Republic of Ireland, which undoubtedly also has an echo
in Northern Ireland. While it has been limited in terms of cross-border
movement of local markets interacting, equally it would be fair
to say that this has been developing. I was in an office in Derry
on Monday and one of the senior officials there was saying that
they had recently moved, and they were a quarter of a mile into
Donegal. Particularly as transport, notably road transport, is
improving, I think that we are seeing a greater increase, and
that we are likely to see a greater increase—but I would
not want to overemphasise it either.
Chairman: Minister, the division bell
has come at a time when we had just completed our questions. So
may I, on behalf of the Committee, thank you for answering our
questions this afternoon. I am sure that the answers will be very
helpful to us in compiling our final report.
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