Select Committee on West Northamptonshire Development Corporation (Area and Constitution) Order 2004 Minutes of Evidence


Presentation of Case - Mr Drabble (Sections 66-133)

 66. That is a body very much with a market town agenda strongly in support of the inclusion of Towcester within the UDC boundaries.

 67. Going back to the speech, paragraph 34(iii) refers to the East Midlands Development Agency's support and that of English Partnerships and that of Northamptonshire Partnership and the Northamptonshire Chamber of Commerce, which wishes to "underline its support for the UDC".

 68. The reasons for this support show that those who serve the communities affected understand why the UDC is appropriate, for example the Local Strategic Partnerships "are all agreed that there is a fundamental requirement to address the needs of new and existing populations in complementary ways and that the three towns are allied in function and role to serve town and catchment populations." The Towcester Partnerships recognises that "it is [the growth of Towcester] which has not been matched by a similar development of the social and physical infrastructure, that is now severely affecting the sustainability and future economic viability of the town as a rural services centre". I could go on.

 69. So we will be urging your Lordships to place considerable weight on the wide range of support for the Government proposals: from all political parties, from varied public sector organisations and from the private and voluntary sectors.

 70. I have already mentioned that growth will happen anyway in West Northamptonshire whether or not there is a UDC. I am going to explain now why the UDC does not determine the amount of growth and does not decide where that growth will go.

 71. The level of growth in West Northamptonshire: the level of growth in West Northamptonshire will be determined through the regional guidance to be contained in the Milton Keynes and South Midlands Sub-Regional Strategy

 72. I need to explain a little of the background. The full details are set out in tab 23.

 73. The basic framework for decisions as to the amount of housing to be provided in a plan period was, until the enactment of the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 Act, as follows: firstly, the government would set out the housing requirement for a region split down into requirements for each county in the relevant regional planning guidance, the RPG.

 74. The county councils were required to provide for that number of houses through their structure plans in which the total was divided up amongst all the local planning authorities within the county.

 75. Thirdly, the local planning authorities would then have to make plans either through allocations of land or through other means to meet the figures set for them in the structure plan.

 76. That process has now been simplified somewhat in the 2004 Act. Now, first, the regional planning board will produce a regional spatial strategy for the area which will identify housing requirement for the period which it covers That will split the total requirement down to give each local planning authority its own requirement.

 77. Secondly, the local planning authority will then, through the Local Development Document, set out its plans, policies and allocations for meeting the requirement.

 78. Prior to the adoption of the regional spatial strategy and the LDDs, the government is pursuing through the relevant processes amendments to the regional planning guidance for the south east and East Midlands and creation of guidance on the relevant part of the east of England to give effect to its policy of securing more housing in the growth areas.

 79. A study in 2001/2 - the Milton Keynes and South Midlands Study - concluded that there was considerable potential for sustainable economic growth in the area Following this, the three regional planning bodies covering the study area were asked to develop proposed alterations to the relevant regional planning guidance. The draft MKSM Strategy to perform this role was published in July 2003. It was subject to public consultation and an examination in public. The examination in public panel reported on the draft strategy on 2 August 2004 and the ODPM will publish its response to that report shortly. A further consultation period will then follow before the strategy is adopted.

 80. It is the strategy which will set the housing figures for West Northamptonshire.

 81. There have already been substantial opportunities for individuals and organisations to put forward their views on the appropriateness of the draft strategy. STOP, for example, was invited to various sessions of the panel hearings as was CPRE. There will be further opportunities to make representations on the draft strategy once the ODPM publishes its response to the panel's report Those who oppose growth have had and will continue to have opportunities to set out their views

 82. Once the level of development for West Northamptonshire has been finalised, the three local authorities will prepare their local development documents. As the note at tab 23 explains, the LDD will explain how the authorities propose to meet the housing requirement set out in the strategy and will include proposed allocations. The authorities' proposals in this regard will be subjected to detailed, statutory consultation requirements and a local public inquiry. There will be through this process numerous opportunities for objectors to set out their case as to where development should or should not go.

 83. The UDC will have no control over this process. It will have no plan making powers. It will not set the regional target. It will not set local targets. It will not decide where to allocate land for housing. It will simply be the delivery vehicle for the plans and proposals developed through other statutory routes by other statutory bodies

 84. Delivering more sustainable development, point (v) of the preliminary points: I consider this issue further when I address the benefits of and policy behind the Urban Development Corporation below However, at this stage, it is worth highlighting one point which appears to be lost on the Petitioners.

 85. Lord Rooker will give evidence later that his vision behind the UDC is that it will have the ability to deliver more brownfield development than would local authorities. It will be able to assist with site assembly, infrastructure and similar matters to an extent that local authorities would not be able to match either in terms of resources or experience. This is crucial because if there are the ways and means of bringing forward brownfield development speculative housing applications on Greenfield sites will be able to be successfully resisted by application of the sequential test - namely, looking for sites in urban areas first If, on the contrary, developers are able to show that, notwithstanding the large areas of brownfield land, the constraints to it coming forward are such that in reality it will not be delivered, the risks of further Greenfield development being permitted increase. There is thus a very real, practical reason why the UDC is good for those who want to limit Greenfield development.

 86. Logically, those opposed to growth should oppose it through other channels - the strategy and the Local Development Document process - but their opposition to a UDC fails to recognise that the UDC is a means to minimise that about which they are most concerned, namely, loss of green fields.

 87. Relationship with local authorities: there are two areas which need to be considered. Firstly, the UDC's planning powers which are taken from the local authorities and, secondly, its other powers and functions.

 88. In respect of the first of these it is important to distinguish between plan making powers and development control powers. The UDC will have none of the former and will only have some of the latter. Our planning system is now plan led which means that development proposals are required to be determined in accordance with the development plan unless material considerations indicate otherwise. The development plan for these purposes will under the 2004 Act be the regional spatial strategy and the Local Development Document. Those documents set the planning policies for an area. They allocate land for particular uses and explain the approach which will be adopted to certain types of development in certain locations. The development plan is worked up through a statutory process which invites and allows major public involvement. The plan making powers and functions will remain with the local authorities. They will not transfer to the UDC.

 89. The UDC will however be given powers to determine certain types of planning applications within the UDA - namely, large strategic developments. This is a development control function. It is sensible that the UDC should have these powers because of the need to secure a coordinated approach across the UDA, with the private sector, so that, for example, infrastructure agreements - so-called 106 agreements - can be negotiated in the most effective way. In exercising its development control function, the UDC will undertake at least the same degree of community consultation as local planning authorities are required to undertake and will have to determine planning applications under the same statutory framework as local planning authorities are required to do. The location of strategic developments will be determined by the LDD because, in the current plan led system, the location of major strategic developments will be fixed in the plan. The Committee should therefore approach criticism of the accountability of the UDC on the following factual basis: firstly, the local authorities will be determining where the growth should go and which land should be subject to housing allocations through the LDD; secondly, the UDC will determine strategic applications made to it in accordance with the development plan; thirdly, the UDC will have a significant number of elected councillors on it; fourthly, there will be wide ranging public consultation requirements.

 90. Further, it is important to note as a major advantage the enhancement of local control and decision making that a UDC brings with it. Absent a UDC, a local authority seeking to undertake major capital projects - site assembly, infrastructure, town centre development and so on - would generally have to approach the local government office for funding. That government office will pass the applications on to Whitehall, where they are judged against nationally applicable criteria. Only those plans and projects which meet the requirements obtain funding. The extent to which local authorities can therefore deliver that which they consider best for their area is not determined by them but in Whitehall. This will not be the case under the UDC.

 91. The UDC will be allocated funds, not earmarked for specific projects but a general pot. It will decide how to spend those funds. In so doing it will not have to assess the projects it proposes against national criteria. It can decide what it thinks is best for the area it serves and spend its funds according to its priorities. This is the sort of freedom and flexibility which is not and cannot be given to local authorities. The UDC, with local representatives on it and working in partnership with the local authorities and having on its board a number of councillors, will have powers moved to it not from the local authorities but from Whitehall.

 92. Having dealt with those points at some length, it is now appropriate to look at the policy behind and the merits of this UDC.

 93. The policy background and, in particular, the sustainable communities plan: in February 2003 the First Secretary of State presented the sustainable communities plan to the other place. This is the government's plan for, one, securing regeneration and an urban renaissance and, two, meeting pressing housing shortages in the southern half of England. This is not the place to consider the justification for the policy in any detail but understanding the basic thrust is important to seeing the rationale for the UDC in its context.

 94. The problem which the sustainable communities plan sets out to address has two essential elements. Firstly, the perception that post-war development has created unsustainable urban sprawl with inadequate emphasis on the needs of the community with the result that town centres have gradually lost their role at the heart of the communities they historically served. Secondly, historic inadequate provision of housing with results with which we are all too familiar: high house prices, young people being priced out of their home communities, key workers being unable to live in the areas where they work.

 95. The sustainable communities plan has at its heart two recurring themes which go hand in hand. Firstly, urban renaissance and, secondly, increased housing provision.

 96. Urban renaissance is required to reverse the trends, as perceived by many, of recent decades of sprawling estates on the edge of towns, designed for the car and with high car dependency; pulling people out of rather than into their town centres and with jobs and services being located out of centre. The focus under the sustainable communities plan is to pull activity back into the towns, to resurrect their historic roles as the centre of community, and social and commercial activity.

 97. In that context, increased housing provision will be sought to be secured to the greatest possible extent on brownfield sites within existing urban areas such as to contribute to the urban renaissance rather than perpetuating historic trends. Where Greenfield development is necessary to meet housing requirements, it should be planned with a view to maximising the urban renaissance and in a way which avoids unsustainable sprawl and inefficient use of land.

 98. The two themes therefore - urban renaissance and increased housing provision - can thus be complimentary, pulling in the same direction, rather than the latter undermining the former as has been the case historically.

 99. Sustainable communities are not just new communities. Whilst in, for example, Thames Gateway, new communities will be created, the sustainable communities plan is applicable to existing communities as well. In the case of existing towns, the ambition is to secure the renaissance and the much needed new housing in a way where the two feed off each other with the urban renaissance creating the sort of communities in which people wish to live and with the new housing contributing to the delivery of that renaissance.

 100. The plan sets out some of the key requirements for a sustainable community. They include, firstly, having a strong local economy to provide local jobs and wealth; secondly, having a safe and healthy environment; thirdly, being of a sufficient size, scale and density to support basic amenities in the neighbourhood and minimise the use of resources; fourthly, having good transport infrastructure and, fifthly, having good quality public services.

 101. These are all clearly desirable objectives generally. Where expanded communities are required, these should be sustainable, well designed, high quality and attractive places in which people will positively choose to live and work. For reasons to which I turn below, the best way of securing this for the three towns with which we are here concerned is through a UDC.

 102. I set out at paragraph 22 above the benefits generally of a UDC which can be summarised as single minded focus, access and influence on government, financial resources, expert staff, long term view, comprehensive view across local authority boundaries and ability to secure increased private sector commitment.

 103. Those benefits are needed in West Northamptonshire for three principal reasons. First, the scale of the task. Secondly, the complexity of the task and, third, the cross boundary nature of the problems to be addressed.

 104. Evidence from Lord Rooker and senior officials at the ODPM will explain in detail what benefits the UDC will bring here. At this stage, I intend to give your Lordships a brief overview only.

 105. It is sensible to mention at the outset the basic perspective we urge upon you as to why the UDA should include not only Northampton but also Towcester and Daventry. We believe that the case for a UDC in Northampton itself is straightforward and overwhelming, and it is not clear to us that, for example, the CPRE resist it. Given this fact, it is the government's firm view that it would be highly unfortunate if all the regeneration energy went into Northampton at the expense of Towcester and Daventry. The three communities are closely linked. The objective must be to ensure that both Towcester and Daventry thrive in their own right and not merely as dormitory adjuncts. The centres and social infrastructure of both Towcester and Daventry must be supported if this is to be achieved. You will hear from both Sandra Barnes, the leader of SNC, and Stephen Atkinson, the chief executive of Daventry, as to their advocacy of this perspective. They want their respective communities to be able to punch their weight.

 106. The regeneration of Northampton and the delivery of the growth that is coming to it is a massive task. In 2002, it had 324 hectares of brownfield land that was either unused or may be available for redevelopment. That is similar to the amount at Thurrock where a UDC has been established and more than in some of our major cities - places such as Newcastle, Coventry, Nottingham and Leicester. The bringing forward of some of the individual sites is by itself a huge task for a small local authority; never mind bringing them forward in tandem with wide ranging other projects . We give you references and examples.

 107. Its capacity for non-greenfield housing is up to 19,000 units, a huge number for a town of this size. Bringing them forward to the maximum extent possible is a challenge. The benefits of doing so are also huge.

 108. There are a number of extremely large and major town centre sites which require major regeneration projects to contribute to the renaissance of Northampton. For example, redevelopment of the much derided Greyfriars House on the edge of the town centre to provide a new focus of retail and commercial activity around a public transport hub is a huge task but it is a task that self-evidently is required if Northampton is to succeed in improving the role it plays for its catchment in the future.

 109. Recent growth in housing provision has not been matched by the necessary level of investment in social, economic and community infrastructure. There is a need for substantial investment in transport infrastructure. There are obvious pressure points in the social infrastructure -- by way of an obvious example, the hospital car park - and population growth has not always been accompanied by the necessary and economic activity to ensure that the new Northampton is a truly sustainable community.

 110. The town centre is facing challenges from other centres in the region especially Milton Keynes but also lower order centres. The town scores badly on deprivation indices. The challenge is to use the growth to assist in reversing the relative poverty of much of Northampton.

 111. The town's population is set to grow by about 50 per cent from almost 200,000 to 300,000 over 20 years. This requires 20 years of concerted effort to ensure that that growth is properly and sustainably planned. That level of growth requires massive investment in infrastructure - roads, schools, hospitals, car parks and so on. Northampton will become the size of Nottingham in terms of population. It will require up to 50 new primary schools, up to ten new secondary schools and double the number of hospital beds. It is unreal to expect a relatively small council to be able to manage this effectively so as to deliver the sustainable communities the government is determined to build here.

 112. In respect of Towcester, regeneration and creating a sustainable community is also a large task. The social infrastructure is seriously is seriously lacking with historic growth in housing not being matched by appropriate provision. The town has a lot of catching up to do - the health facilities need a new consolidated site and major investment, youth and day care facilities need to be enhanced. The successful local comprehensive probably needs a new site to allow its continued expansion. Secondly, the town centre, "severed" by the A5, is not as successful as it needs to be if it is to offer the range of retail and leisure services that a town the size of Towcester needs if it is to be a successful sustainable community. The large estates of the 1980s and 1990s have not been provided with local social infrastructure and, whilst relatively prosperous, these sprawling estates are the opposite of what sustainability means. Future growth has to be delivered with social infrastructure and not on the basis that residents can get access to the services they need by getting in their cars and driving elsewhere. Despite many years of trying the town still needs a bypass. A bypass will open the way to securing the town centre renaissance by removing the obviously visible severance effect of the current A5 and making the town centre a more attractive place for inward investment and retail and commercial activity. Securing the provision of the bypass is a major task.

 113. Our evidence will show that Daventry is in decline and it is well down the road towards becoming a dormitory town. These trends have to be reversed if Daventry is to be a sustainable community of the future. The scale of the task is daunting. Major town centre regeneration is urgently required and new shopping and leisure facilities are needed.

 114. There is a longstanding recognition by the DBC that the historic centre is in need of major regeneration if it is to act as a focus of the enlarged community in the future. The Civic Trust Regeneration Unit was invited to work with Daventry in 2002 to prepare a town centre vision. Mr Stephen Atkinson on behalf of Daventry Borough Council will explain to your Lordships why the council considers bringing forward this vision is essential to reversing the relative decline of Daventry and why a UDC is the appropriate vehicle to do so. Absent the renaissance of Daventry town centre as the centre of local social, retail, cultural and economic activity, there is a very real risk that the substantial growth which is coming to Daventry town centre anyway will exacerbate rather than contribute to reversing the town's decline into dormitory status.

 115. From the above it will be clear that the regeneration tasks facing each of the three towns are very different. Northampton is a classic case of a town which needs major physical regeneration with large areas of underused or unused land. Towcester does not have large areas of derelict or underused land in the same way as Northampton but it is clearly in need of a renaissance - severance by the A5, sprawling estates, creeping dormitory status and inadequate social infrastructure all have to be reversed. Daventry has the clear scope to be a successful market town, with the potential to be a thriving sustainable community of the future. That potential will only be realised by substantial town centre investment over a sustained period to resurrect the town centre as the heart of the community's social, economic and cultural activity. Whilst the tasks facing each of the towns are very different, each of their councils and the local strategic partnerships recognise that the UDC is the best way to ensure the regeneration they need.

 116. I do not intend to say much about the complexity of this task in opening. Witnesses from the councils and the ODPM will explain how complex succeeding in these three towns given the task will be. It would be unrealistic to expect SNC or DBC to be able to deliver that which their towns require on the scale identified above. This is far from a criticism of these councils. The reality is that a UDC will be much better placed to ensure success than two relatively small local authorities. The councils themselves recognise this. They have the ways and means of delivering individual projects on a relatively small scale and have the local knowledge to know what is best for their towns but they recognise that the UDC will be much better able to deliver that which they know they need than they are themselves. In respect of Northampton, the scale of the task in Northampton alone would be easily enough to justify the creation of a UDC.

 117. Cross boundary issues are particularly important here. We have seen the local authority boundaries on the plan at divider 2. Any further expansion of Northampton south and west would cross into the areas of Daventry and South Northampton. Such growth was perceived by them as a threat to their "green wedge" between their main towns and Northampton and to their ability to avoid becoming yet more dormitory in their nature. For these reasons those councils sought through the strategy to ensure that development which was to occur in their areas be not development on the edge of Northampton to increase the size of that town but on the edge of Towcester and Daventry on the basis that properly planned and directed growth could assist the sustainable development of those towns, whereas further growth of Northampton south and westwards would not do so. SNC and DBC know that the future of these towns is inextricably linked to the future of Northampton and that the future of the three towns' housing, infrastructure and employment has to be considered in tandem. The best body to do this is the UDC.

 118. With regard to points raised in the petitions, we have set out above the basic rationale for the UDC and why it is justified ion the context of West Northamptonshire. We will test the Petitioners' cases in cross-examination and will make final submissions on them. However, at this stage, on the limited knowledge that we have of what the key points are the Petitioners are likely to raise, we have the following short points.

 119. Some petitioners argue that the UDC should not be established because the level of development proposed for West Northamptonshire in the MKSM strategy is excessive. As I have shown above, and as will be developed in evidence, it is in the MKSM strategy where the level of development for West Northants will be settled. The process is independent of the Order. Not establishing the UDC will not educe the level of development proposed. The UDC is being established in the context of that growth to help reduce the potential negative effects of that growth by recycling brownfield land, providing infrastructure, rejuvenating the local economy and revitalising town centres, and to increase its positive impacts by using the opportunity it presents to help tackle the existing regeneration problems. Without the establishment of the UDC there will be more pressure on Greenfield sites, not less.

 120. Some petitioners assert that setting up a UDC is premature as the MKSM Sub-Regional Strategy is not yet finalised. This is not justified. The outcome of the Sub-Regional Strategy is independent of the existence of the UDC. The UDC's merits are largely independent of the precise terms of the MKSM Strategy.

 121. Some petitioners allege that the level of growth proposed in the strategy will have to be accommodated on Greenfield land and that the UDC is being set up to deliver this. This is not correct for three reasons. First, as already shown, the allocation of land for development, whether that be greenfield or brownfield, will remain with the local planning authorities. The existence of the UDC, with its focused powers to recycle brownfield land, will usually encourage local authorities to allocate brownfield sites for development, which they might otherwise consider too difficult to bring back into use. Secondly, it is existing government policy that suitable brownfield land is used for development before greenfield land. The local authorities will have to abide by this when preparing their local development frameworks and the UDC will have to abide by this when determining planning applications. Thirdly, a UDC would hardly be required to encourage development on greenfield land. The market will develop greenfield land in preference to brownfield, and needs no assistance from a UDC to do so. The single-minded powers of a UDC to assemble complex sites are ideally suited to maximising the use of brownfield land and the government is seeking to establish to establish one in West Northants to ensure that the growth proposed in the strategy is, as far as possible contained within brownfield land.

 122. Some petitioners allege that Daventry and Towcester and parts of Northampton should not be included in the UDC as they are not in need of regeneration. This is not based on the facts, nor is it a view supported by the democratically elected representatives of these settlements. Daventry and Towcester have been growing in population terms, but their centres are in decline. Retail outlets and employment opportunities are not present in sufficient numbers to avoid a slow decline into dormitory town status. The responsible councils have already prepare regeneration initiatives to address these problems but have recognised that a UDC will be required to help with delivery.

 123. Some petitioners allege that the level of growth proposed in the MKSM strategy will lead to increased congestion, primarily on the A45/A5 crossroads in Weedon. The government does not dispute that increased development may lead to increased traffic on these routes. However, the level of development in the tree settlements will be determined by the MKSM spatial strategy and not by the creation of the UDC. The establishment of the UDC will not increase the level of development proposed in the MKSM strategy, and equally, not setting up the UDC will not decrease it. Further, the government believes that the UDC would reduce the level of traffic on these roads compared to the same level of development without the UDC. This is because the UDC's object is to make the level of development proposed in the strategy sustainable. This will involve promoting employment growth, better schools, health care and other amenities within the three settlements, thereby reducing the need to travel between them.

 124. Some petitioners allege that the level of development proposed in the strategy will increase the risk of flooding, particularly with regard to Weedon. This does not logically lead to one objecting to the UDC. The level and location of development will not be for the UDC. If the level of development did increase the risk of flooding this would be the case irrespective of whether a UDC is established. However, we do not accept that the risk of flooding will in fact increase.

 125. Some petitioners allege that a UDC is inappropriate for towns embedded in rural areas. There is no restriction in the legislation upon areas that can be designated as urban development areas, provided that there is a need for regeneration, and this UDC area is restricted to the three largest towns in West Northamptonshire. Precedent for the inclusion of such towns in a UDC area was set by the establishment of the Thurrock UDC in October 2003.

 126. Some petitioners allege that the planned growth of Daventry will encroach on surrounding villages. This is not understood. The boundary of the UDC provides a significant gap between Daventry and the surrounding villages. Without a UDC to manage the growth that is already occurring and that is planned independently of the UDC, encroachment on surrounding villages we say would be more likely.

 127. Three individual petitioners allege that the establishment of the UDC will result in excessive development near their homes that will force them to vacate their present dwellings. The claim is unfounded. In any event, even if justified such a result would not be the result of the creation of the UDC. It may be that their houses are affected as a result of the strategy and locational decisions that are still to be made in the local development document by the borough council, but those processes, as repeatedly stated already, are independent of the UDC.

 128. Some petitioners allege that the UDC Board will be sufficiently democratic or accountable. This has been answered in the body of this opening. Some petitioners allege that decision-making will be impaired by lack of local knowledge and local accountability. The four local authority members referred to earlier will fulfil these functions and the information pack for board members to be appointed by open competition states that candidates are sought with an understanding of regeneration and local community issues in West Northamptonshire. The Chair designate, Keith Barwell, who was appointed through these procedures, is indeed a well-known local person. In addition, the UDC is required to draw up a code of practice as to consultation with the four local authorities by virtue of section 140(1) of the Act. The government has also made a commitment that UDCs will adopt Statements of Community Involvement for the use of their development control powers in the same way that local planning authorities will do under the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004.

 129. Some petitioners allege that the formation of the UDC would marginalise the rural villages and their parish councils. This is incorrect. No organisation with responsibilities outside the UDC area will have any loss of powers. It is vital for this committee to consider these points raised by the Petitioners in their context. They are not made by the local authorities concerned. They fly in the face of the carefully considered views of those democratically elected bodies and they fail to reflect what the UDC is actually about. We hope we will demonstrate that the concerns of the petitioners are not justified and that the UDC will be a means of reducing the impact of growth rather than increasing it.

 130. For all the reasons I have given the government firmly believes that the creation of this Urban Development Corporation and Urban Development Area, with the presently proposed boundaries, represents the appropriate way forward. That view is widely shared, not least by those on the ground who will have to work on a day-to-day basis with the UDC if it is created. We ask you not to frustrate their ambitions.

 131. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for that, Mr Drabble. Perhaps, if it is convenient to you, this might be an appropriate moment to adjourn for five minutes.

After a short break

 132. CHAIRMAN: Mr Drabble, there is one small administrative point I should mention before inviting you to resume, and that is that during the lunch break this room will be secured. It will be opened again at a quarter to two in case you wish to have access to your papers. It will also be kept locked overnight throughout the committee's proceedings and it will not be used by anybody else, so do feel freer to leave your voluminous papers here if that is convenient.

 133. MR DRABBLE: Thank you, my Lord. I am very grateful. Can I apologise for one mistake in the opening which was that we referred constantly to Daventry Borough Council. It is a district council. I am sure those behind me are making that fairly plain. I will now call Lord Rooker.


 
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