Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1-19)
MR DAVID
WOODS AND
MR LESLIE
ASHE
19 MAY 2004
Q1 Mr Pound: Thank you very much indeed
for joining us. First of all, if there is anything you feel you
want to say for the record then we are entirely in your hands
on that.
Mr Woods: Thank you, Mr Pound,
but I do not think that is necessary. We will aim to help the
Committee as best we can and where we cannot give answers it is
because there are not currently answers to give on some of the
issues.
Q2 Mr Pound: Can I start off by talking
about the effective partnership fora. Clearly the process is predicated
on partnership collaboration. What steps has the Department of
Education considered to ensure that effective partnership fora
are created for all schools?
Mr Woods: This is something which
is certainly not as prevalent in our education system as we would
like. There are good examples already of collaboration between
schools and further education colleges particularly around pupils
in Key Stage 4, that is 14-16 year olds. That needs to be extended,
we recognise that. We need more school-to-school collaboration
as well if the Entitlement Framework is to be provided effectively.
We are working currently with our colleagues in the Department
of Employment and Learning on a number of pilots to explore further
the scope for school further education collaboration and we also
recognise the need to put in place support arrangements to help
schools at a local level sit down together to consider how best
they ought to collaborate in the interests of the pupils in their
own area.
Q3 Mr Pound: Obviously the pilots were
recommended in Costello. Could you give us some idea of the current
situation with regard to the funding of the pilots?
Mr Woods: We have a relatively
small amount of money for the current year which we are using
with our colleagues in the Department of Employment and Learning
to run pilots based on six further education colleges, each of
which we anticipate will be linking with perhaps six or seven
schools in their own locality to look at different dimensions
of collaboration.
Q4 Mr Pound: Could you give us an indication
of the geography of those six?
Mr Woods: They are spread across
Northern Ireland quite deliberately, from Londonderry to Belfast,
to Newry, really to cover the spectrum because we do recognise
that the situation in an urban area will be very different to
that in a rural area and we need to explore the issues that arise.
There are practical difficulties in collaborations such as the
synchronisation of timetables, perhaps some movements of pupils
and we need to explore whether we can have collaboration without
too much pupil movement perhaps by using distance learning techniques,
video conferencing arrangements and things of that sort. There
is a lot of work that has to be done to explore all of that.
Q5 Mr Pound: Have you got a timetable
for the pilots? Have you any idea of where you are in terms of
time?
Mr Woods: We are aiming to have
these operative from the beginning of the next academic school
year, so from September onwards and they will run for whatever
period we think is necessary to give us sufficient findings from
that. Where the pilots show that good things are possible and
the institutions concerned want to continue with that, then obviously
that would lead us into a more permanent arrangement in those
cases.
Q6 Mr Pound: What about the role of controlled
secondary schools in all of this, what are you doing to ensure
they are participating in this?
Mr Woods: In all cases collaboration
will be a matter of the schools themselves volunteering. The Costello
Report is not prescriptive in this regard. It does envisage that
collaboration will be something which schools will engage in of
their own volition and in the interests of their pupils and that
applies to controlled schools just as to other schools.
Q7 Mr McGrady: If the level of co-operation
and collaboration with the schools and further education colleges
is to be determined at a local level—and I know your pilot
schemes do not assess this very point—how do you ensure
that the structure is such that there will not be a variation
in the quality and effectiveness of the subsequent education provision?
It would appear to me to be fraught with all sorts of difficulties
given the variety of communities and urban areas in the north.
Mr Ashe: One of the principles
underpinning the Costello recommendations is the whole issue of
the Entitlement Framework whereby within an area all schools will
be offering a similar range of courses. In terms of standards,
the Department's inspectorate obviously will be looking at standards,
but the Education and Library Boards, CCMS and all the managing
authorities will be looking at the way standards play a part within
the schools in their particular areas. The Costello Report included
a recommendation that there would be area planning and development
partnerships and those will have a role in looking at ensuring
consistency and coherence of provision from one area to another
and that would include standards as well as the actual levels
of provision.
Q8 Mr McGrady: The Costello Report says
that partnerships in rural areas should be given special consideration
in terms of ensuring that a pupil living in a rural area has the
same equality of opportunity as his urban counterpart. How do
you propose to take account of provision in rural areas to ensure
that equality of education is available? Are there any particular
structures you are proposing that you can see now as the blueprint
for the future?
Mr Woods: I do not know that we
see a blueprint. The reason why the Costello Working Group was
keen not to be prescriptive is that it did not feel there was
a one-size-fits-all model that would be appropriate because the
situation in an urban area would be very different to a rural
area. There is no single model. We do recognise the particular
features in the situation of rural schools which will tend to
be smaller, which will tend on their own to be able to provide
a lesser range and, therefore, the level of collaboration that
they would need to engage in will be greater. You do not want
to have pupils on buses all day going round different education
institutions, so clearly there is going to be a need to look perhaps
at some more innovative ways of addressing that. I mentioned earlier
the question of distance learning arrangements. Perhaps it ought
to be the teachers that travel rather than the pupils.
Q9 Mr McGrady: The Costello Report refers
to the potential amalgamation and rationalisation of some schools.
I would suggest, based on past experience, that any major amalgamation
will be very strenuously opposed particularly in the rural communities
which are dependent on the availability of local schools.
Mr Woods: The Costello Working
Group also recognised that, given the rural nature of much of
Northern Ireland, there would continue to be a need for rural
schools in many instances. Where rationalisation does come into
the frame, it is not really arising from the Costello recommendations,
I think it is arising from the demographic decline. To be fair
to school authorities, I think in a number of instances they might
have moved already to bring about some rationalisation but for
the fact that because of the Burns Report and then the Costello
there was a degree of uncertainty and they were unsure as to how
best to move. So I think school authorities will be looking at
the configuration of provision in their area, recognising that
some rationalisation will probably be needed in some areas, but
that arises principally from the demography rather than from Costello.
Q10 Mr Luke: Although the Costello Report
focuses mainly on post-primary education, what consideration has
been given to ensure sufficient continuity of learning for pupils
between Key Stage 2 and Key Stage 3?
Mr Ashe: This was one of the issues
that were identified in the research that was carried out in the
early part of the review, that is that pupil's education has suffered
in the transfer stage from primary to post-primary education.
Under the new arrangements there will not be the same concentration
on preparation for the tests, so the Key Stage 2 primary school
curriculum can be developed further and delivered right through
to the end of Key Stage 2. There will be less of a sense of failure
and loss of self-esteem especially for those pupils who do not
get a grammar school place but who do the test and do not get
the grade. Our teachers in secondary schools at the moment say
that they spend a lot of their time in the early years, years
one and two in secondary education, trying to build the self-esteem
and self-confidence again in those pupils who might have wanted
to go to grammar school but did not. Without the Transfer Test
we are looking towards a more streamlined admissions process which
will allow for additional time for induction between the primary
school and the secondary school, for example pupils from the primary
school spending a couple of days in the secondary school or teachers
from the secondary school spending some time in the primary school
to try and develop better relationships and to build the confidence
and so on of the pupils. In addition to that, the pupil profile,
which was one of the key elements both from the Burns Report and
from the Costello Report, will provide a better level of information
to transfer with the pupils about their needs, their aspirations,
their interests and so on so that the teachers in the secondary
schools are better equipped to build on what the children have
learned in the primary school.
Q11 Mr Luke: Do you feel that the plans
in the Costello Report, which were developed by the Department,
provide sufficient involvement by primary schools in the transition
period? Is there this free flowing transfer of information so
you can get this kind of continuity you have been talking about?
Mr Ashe: One of the issues at
the moment is that there is not as much communication and linkage
between the primary school and the secondary school as some would
like. We would hope that under the new arrangements, where schools
in an area are going to be working in collaboration, the teachers
in the primary schools are going to be able to provide advice
and guidance to the parents when it comes to transfers and they
are going to have to develop those links with the secondary school.
In overall terms there should be better communication between
the two sectors which will be for the benefit of the children.
Q12 Mr Luke: Do you operate a feeder
school system in your areas?
Mr Woods: No, we do not. That
is one of the many issues yet to be resolved.
Q13 Mark Tami: Looking at the demands
placed on Education and Library Boards, what additional support
are you going to give them to enable them to take up the extensive
range of proposals in the Report?
Mr Woods: The Boards already have
a statutory role for providing appropriate education provision
for all pupils in their area, so it really is simply turning to
the Boards to discharge what is already their role. Clearly we
do recognise that there will be new demands arising from these
proposals, the need to help schools at a local level review together
what they have to offer and how they can make a better provision
for the pupils. So we do recognise that that will require resources.
We are still looking at how best that should be done. The Costello
Report suggested area groups and local groups and they may well
have a part to play. Really what we want is something which is
as streamlined and as efficient and as helpful to the schools
as possible to provide them ultimately with the support they need
and how best to organise this will be one of the issues which
we will be putting out at an early stage to the strategic advisory
group.
Q14 Mark Tami: Are you looking at the
need to retrain existing staff, is that an issue?
Mr Woods: Yes, that is certainly
so. In parallel with what is happening in relation to the review
of post-primary education there has also been a review of the
school curriculum and most of those issues will be getting rolled
out at one time and those will have quite a significant impact
on teachers and, therefore, the need for support, for training
and for retraining will be quite a significant issue for us. Again,
we expect the Education and Library Boards to be playing a key
role in that through their support services.
Mr Pound: We touched briefly a moment
ago on the issue of admissions criteria and all of us in this
room knew we would return to it. Mr McGrady wishes to do so now.
Q15 Mr McGrady: How does the Department
envisage the term "nearest suitable school" should be
defined by the Department? Do you not think there is the potential
for a great deal of confusion in parents' minds between the phrase
"nearest suitable school" and "proximity to the
school"?
Mr Ashe: The term "nearest
suitable school" is not really a term in relation to the
admissions arrangements, it is a term that is used to specify
the transport arrangements, it is a transport requirement which
currently relates to the secondary and the grammar school sectors
and the denominational break down within each of those sectors.
Proximity to the school was one of the recommendations which came
from the Burns Report as one of the admissions criteria for schools.
As far as the current position is concerned, the Costello Working
Group recommended that there should be a short menu of admissions
criteria that schools would be able to choose from in the event
of them being oversubscribed for admissions purposes. They did
not seek to try to define what those criteria were, they recommended
that the Department should commission some research into that
and we are in the process of doing that at the moment and that
research will inform consideration of the admissions criteria
to apply under the new arrangements. The plan is that those will
be available for consideration towards the end of this year. At
the moment the admissions criteria under the new arrangements
have not been determined.
Q16 Mr McGrady: Are you actually saying
that these two phrases are to do with transport, ie mileage and
cost and nothing to do with educational provision?
Mr Woods: No, I think what Leslie
was saying is that the term "nearest suitable school"
appears in our transport circular and it is saying whether or
not you are eligible for free transport. Clearly that phrase will
now have to be completely revisited because if the configuration
of schools is different, there will no longer be selective and
non-selective schools, then what constitutes a "nearest suitable
school" is clearly something which will have to be re-examined
and that is something which we are aware of. The whole of the
home to school transport policy will have to be reviewed. That
is just one of the many ripples which this Report causes. Specifically
in the case of proximity, there are a lot of different dimensions
of that, a school could use some sort of proximity criterion as
part of its admissions criteria if it is over-subscribed, but
it could define that in a lot of different ways, feeder primary
schools is one. Certain schools might see proximity in terms of
a parish boundary, but then at the very end, as a tie breaker
in your admissions criteria, you might have proximity in the sense
of just the measured distance from your front door to the school's
front door. Some schools have already had to use that as the final,
final determinant for the last place or two, as indeed happens
in England also.
Q17 Mr McGrady: One of the ripples that
I would like to comment upon is the possibility that parents become
more mobile and move house to an area where they see either the
selection process as more appropriate or the education provision
as more desirable. Has any assessment been done of the possible
impact of that?
Mr Woods: We know anecdotally
it happens even currently, although it is to a much lesser degree
than I suspect happens in parts of England. The issue there in
part is the perception that parents have of the relative strengths
or value of certain schools or the types of education the schools
provide and that is a real issue. The Working Group knew that
if it simply removed the Transfer Test and did nothing else there
was likely to be a considerable swing of applications towards
the current grammar schools and people may then have had to resort
to moving house to get closer to them. The issue here is that
we need to create a situation where schools may be different in
what they offer but they should be perceived as being of equal
value. The Report also advocates that we explore the possibility,
for example, of specialist schools so that there are alternative
kinds of schooling on offer in each locality which parents could
find equally attractive to the grammar school option. That is
something which requires a lot of work on our part. We have been
exploring how the arrangements work currently in England where
you now have a very substantial proportion of post-primary schools
in the form of special schools and that number is growing. So
we are looking at those arrangements and looking at the extent
to which they may be transferable to a Northern Ireland situation.
Mr Pound: A look of wearied resignation
ran around the room when you mentioned parental perceptions. All
I can offer you is a wealth of bitter experience on that based
on the GB urban context. On the issue of specialism, there is
no one more appropriate to probe you on this than Hugo Swire.
Q18 Mr Swire: Has the Department taken
any action to draw upon the experiences of `specialist schools'
in other parts of the UK or elsewhere?
Mr Ashe: We have been very interested
in the developments that have been taking place in England. There
are no specialist schools within Northern Ireland at the moment
and we have been watching with great interest what is happening
in England. The Costello Report recommended that specialist schools
could be one of the options that would allow schools to establish
a position for themselves within a particular area to make them
more attractive to parents. What the Department is currently doing
is looking at the issues surrounding those, ie what those areas
of specialism might be and how the schools could identify what
their specialism might be. The Costello Working Group recommended
that the schools within a local area would look at the needs or
the opportunities within a local area. For example, in an area
where there might be a significant tourist industry the school
might specialise in leisure and tourism; in a rural area a school
might want to specialise in agriculture or horticulture, especially
in an area where there is already an existing agricultural college
that they could establish links with. We are looking at all of
those issues, the funding arrangements, what the admissions criteria
and so on should be. They recommended that while such schools
would offer a specialism, they would also offer the breadth of
curriculum entitlement as well. The evidence that we have from
Great Britain is that specialist schools do offer an opportunity
to raise standards through pupils being better engaged and better
motivated and certainly that is one of the things that appealed
to the Working Group in terms of developing that recommendation.
Q19 Mr Swire: Will any of the pilot schemes
referenced in this Report explore that particular dimension of
the proposals?
Mr Woods: Those particular pilots
were for other purposes, they were specifically around collaboration
and so on, but you are quite right, we do need to look at that.
I cannot mention the particular organisation, but a commercial
organisation has come forward offering to sponsor the creation
of a specialist school in Northern Ireland and never being disposed
to turn away money, we are keen to see whether we could proceed
with that. There are issues in there for us. The arrangements
in England were originally conceived in terms of schools having
to raise some of their funding from private sources. We do not
know how realistic or how transferable that might be to a Northern
Ireland context. There are lots of dimensions there which we will
have to examine. Obviously there will be schools—we already
know of a few—who are keen on exploring the specialist route
for themselves. If they can proceed at an early stage then those
will constitute pilots for us to learn from.
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