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UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 637-iv House of COMMONS MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE NORTHERN IRELAND AFFAIRS COMMITTEE (northern ireland affairs SUB-COMMITTEE)
WASTE MANAGEMENT STRATEGY IN NORTHERN IRELAND
Wednesday 8 September 2004 MR PHILIP WARD and MR STEVE CREED Evidence heard in Public Questions 180 - 213
USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT
Oral Evidence Taken before the Northern Ireland Affairs Sub-Committee on Wednesday 8 September 2004 Members present Mr Tony Clarke, in the Chair Mr Adrian Bailey Mr Iain Luke Mr Eddie McGrady Mr Stephen Pound The Reverend Martin Smyth Mark Tami Mr Bill Tynan ________________ Memorandum submitted by Waste and Resources Action Programme (WRAP)
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Mr Philip Ward, Chief Operating Officer, and Mr Steve Creed, Director of Business and Procurement Programme, examined. Q180 Welcome, gentlemen. Thank you for taking the time to be with us and to assist the Committee with its inquiry into waste management. Bear with us. This is our first week back and we are still trying to refresh our minds in terms of the inquiry that started before the recess. There will be a division at 4 o'clock. Could I start the questioning by clarifying WRAP's role in Northern Ireland? We see that you carry out different functions in different constituent country within the United Kingdom. What strands of WRAP's programme does Northern Ireland currently subscribe to and how much are you contributing to that? Mr Ward: The first thing to say is that WRAP is a UK-wide organisation. It was set up originally with participation from the English departments and the devolved administrations; everybody came in on the same basis. Our initial programmes, therefore, what we call our market development programme, are provided uniformly across the UK. As life moves on, the devolved government has evolved. The different administrations have identified different needs and different requirements. We have tried to respond to that. The biggest intervention from our point of view has been the Waste Implementation Programme run in England, but we have worked with each of the devolved administrations to try to see what it is that we can offer which builds on the work we are doing, that fixes our objectives and meets their local requirements. Mr Creed: On the actual market development side of things, WRAP runs a series of material‑focused activities that are about working with the supply side of the chain, getting material out of initial waste through processing and manufacturing and into the end market. We are working with plastics people in glass. We have also worked in standards, which we have now moved away from and put those back into the initial programmes, but at the point we were working on standards, the main focus was organic. Things like the PAS100 programme is also in Northern Ireland, although we have a new organics programme in which only parts of the programme are available. In addition to that, we have had some overarching programmes that focused on helping the industries that operate in the recycling sector themselves to operate on business and finance, as we call it, which is all about helping organisations to access funding in one way or another. Those programmes are in the business development service which helps businesses become investment-ready, the eQuip scheme which provides access to finance from guaranteeing leases, and the Recycling Fund, which is an equity fund that makes investments that are available in Northern Ireland. On the procurement side, we have worked a lot on developing information and we have started to work with people on how we can change procurement practice. All of that is also available. Much of that at the moment consists of research we have done on Quick Win guides to identify existing products in the construction sector and some management in other areas where products have a high recycle content. A lot of our work in the public sector is in trying to set the targets for recycled content. We are also looking at the public sector in Northern Ireland. In addition to that, some of the programmes that we discuss in detail, although we are in discussion with the Department of the Environment in Northern Ireland at the moment about this, are the programmes Philip Ward referred to which are more about waste minimisation and awareness. On the awareness front, they already have a good awareness programme. In fact, Northern Ireland was one of the first to start an awareness programme, which has been quite successful, and that is great. In addition to that, there is also waste minimisation. We are working in some very specific areas like nappies and home compositing. We are working with the major retailers on attempts to get them to help consumers reduce what they actually throw away. There is an interest in that at the moment. Those are the main programmes in which we are involved. Q181 Chairman: The reason I asked the question is that waste management is a complex issue and I do not think any of us are quite sure how the relationship between the purchaser and provider of services works inasmuch as you also offer a lot of advice and our devolved administration acts in different ways. We are never quite sure whether or not they prioritise the services that they buy from you, whether or not they purchase them on an ad hoc basis, or whether they are advised by you as to services that they themselves require. Is there a difference between the administrations as to where they are in terms of their demand for services and the level of input you have to give in order to provide a service? Mr Ward: The key thing to say is, as Steve Creed has outlined, that most of the programmes do go across the piece. There are these newer programmes where, either because one or other devolved administration has already got a programme in place or they are working with another agency as part of another programme in the same area, or for whatever reason, they have taken the view that they do not need to have that service from us. That is fine. I think there are a number of areas where we are still talking to the relevant administrations about whether they would like to take a service from us. There are other considerations. We are keen to be helpful and to provide a service in a way which meets the local needs. That is very important to us. We should point out, of course, that sometimes, it is not cost-effective to devise very tailor-made programmes for one particular part of the UK. There is a balance of dialogue we have to have with people about how we can adapt or produce things which fit local needs where we are building on the basic infrastructure that we put in place on a UK‑wide basis. I think we are having quite a grown-up debate about all that. We accept the logic of the devolution situation, which is that devolved administrations have to make judgments for themselves about what they want from us. I would not describe their decisions as ad hoc. Our experience is that they have pretty good reasons for what they are doing and sometimes we can persuade them to change their views but in general we think that they are doing it on a logical basis. Mr Creed: Another thing we see as important is not so much prioritisation of the services that WRAP offers but the benefit that all the devolved administrations get, as well as the Westminster-based operations, of having a UK-wide strategy that ensures that a lot of business does not see things within the same boundaries as you might see geographical issues. There are some differences between the Sainsbury shops in London, Wales and Northern Ireland, but basically the company sees that as an operation in the UK. There are certain kinds of things happening in the markets as opposed to the maturity side of it. You have to respect how the market is going to respond. Our feeling is that we are providing a clear framework. Another example might be where we are trying to push up public sector targets. One of the things we are very keen on is trying to get people to think about buying products that are recycled in the construction sector on the basis of value as part of the total bill for a particular infrastructure item. The benefit of that is that it creates innovation in supply chains. We are not saying that you must buy a recycled article and you have to buy this kind of brick. We are saying: find a way to meet this kind of target. That leaves a lot of opportunities for innovation. We are also trying to get all the public sector people throughout the UK to think about this in the same way because it will not work for Carillon, which is a UK-wide construction company, to have one target in Wales, a different one in Scotland and another in Northern Ireland. The benefits come if everybody moves together. Finally, there is discussion about what might happen with some of the aspirations of recycling and an additional landfill tax. We have been in discussion with DEFRA about what might happen in England, but we are also talking with the devolved administrations and having discussions with them. We are ensuring that there is a collective approach in our activities now and going forward with everybody having an input. We are almost acting across the boundaries to help make sure we do not end up with potentially another Whip programme, as it were. Q182 Chairman: There is always the risk when working within Northern Ireland as part of a UK operation that Northern Ireland's interests could be marginalised because of your concentration GB-wide or on this particular side of the water. Is that risk real? Mr Creed: I would say that it is one that everybody has to be aware of. If we could draw an example of how sometimes what might look like a risk is a benefit, in Scotland, for example, SEPA has recognised the PAS100 as the definition of a product. I am not sure if you are aware that the definition of what is waste and what is a product is very important in the recycling of materials and can cause great additional costs at certain points where maybe something has been turned into a product but it is still considered as waste, such as in the aggregates programme. In organics, SEPA has taken the view that once someone uses our PAS100 programme, which is a process and a definition of how compost is manufactured, it is now a product, so that means it is not waste any more. That is of real benefit to the people in Northern Ireland. There is a potential in Scotland for that. It is not only in Northern Ireland that could happen. At the moment, the Environment Agency has not been progressive enough to see that as a real benefit, so there is an opportunity and what might look like something that is a negative could be a big positive. Q183 Chairman: There are also the opportunities, I take it, to work cross-border in terms of that work going on in the Republic? Mr Ward: Yes. We have been supportive of that. We might talk later about the All-Ireland paper and the study which is something we are currently co-sponsoring with the Republic of Ireland Government on the possibility of an all-Ireland paper mill. There is a good clear opportunity to look at that. Q184 Mr Tynan: The Committee has heard differing views with regard to the seriousness of the situation concerning markets for recycling in Northern Ireland. Would your organisation be of the view that the issue of reprocessing capacity within Northern Ireland is still a major problem? Mr Ward: It is difficult, as it were, to take that all in one piece. There are different markets for different commodities. Our view is that there is not any particular virtue in saying that all waste has to be reprocessed where it arises. We are talking about materials which are traded nationally, internationally and globally. Therefore, where the reprocessing capacity arises is something which, at the end of the day, will be sorted out by the market. There are some riders to that. Clearly, what we need to do is to have a situation in which material can be collected, reprocessed and used in a way where the economics flow through. The value‑added is the end stage. Where the best place to reprocess is going to be will depend a bit on the nature of the material, how much it is going to cost to transport it anywhere and what the nature of the reprocessing capacity is, and also where the end market is likely to be for the material once it has been reprocessed. These are complex equations. The outcome is different according to whether you are looking at paper, which is a globally-traded commodity, or at aggregates, which is a pretty locally traded commodity. I am sure there will be elements of the market in Northern Ireland where there are constraints on reprocessing capacity which, because this is a developing market and all markets in that phase have hiccups and bottlenecks, will come up about the reprocessing capacity in Northern Ireland, but that does not mean to say that everything has to be sorted out there. One of the examples would be the Shutton paper mill. We have been very heavily involved in bringing that to a situation where it is using recycled newspaper. We understand that something like 100,000 households in Northern Ireland are actually supplying the paper mill in Shutton, and that makes sense and the economics stack up. That is a contribution which we can make to that. I do not think there is a simple answer to that question. I am sure there will be problems and there will be opportunities for market development operations that we and others are providing to try to stop problems where they arise. But overall I think this something which, at the end of the day, the market largely is going to have to sort out. Q185 Mr Tynan: On a general basis, the view would be that there are no severe constraints in Northern Ireland but there could be special circumstances where that could occur? Mr Ward: As a summary, that is fair enough. I do not think at the moment in our perception there is a major significant barrier. Of course, as the rate of recycling goes up, the amount of product which has to be shifted will go up. You have to keep everything moving in step. A lot of people, for example, are relying on the capacity of the Chinese market to absorb recycling and that is fine at the moment. The problem is that if the Chinese market takes a downturn, where else have you go to go? It is a question about diversity, security and sustainability. These are questions which need to be considered as well. Q186 Mr Tynan: One of the key targets in the Northern Ireland Waste Management Strategy is for the DOE and the DETI to initiate and co-ordinate a market development programme. Have you been involved directly in this and are you aware of the current situation? Mr Creed: We have been discussing with them how it would make sense to go about doing it. They are looking at various options. One of the things we feel quite confident about is that the benefit is in a small area, so there is a limited number of players you can bring together and work with. I also think there is a lot of on-the-ground activity going on in things like Full Circle in Belfast where different components of what is needed to deliver a market development programme are already in place. It is more a matter of defining the direction it needs to go and identifying a shared vision of how you are going to get there. I believe that is the next step we are looking at taking. Q187 Mr Tynan: So you are satisfied with your involvement as an organisation in that development? Mr Creed: Yes. Q188 Mr Tynan: A waste management industry fund is one of the initiatives that has been set up in Northern Ireland under the Market Development Programme. Have you a view on how effective this fund has been up to date in developing markets for recycling materials and are there any changes you would like to see to the fund? Is there any overlap between the fund's activities and WRAP? Mr Creed: If you take the last part first, in terms of overlap, I think the industry is in need of a lot of investment in various forms, so I doubt if we could suggest that a £1 million fund is going to cause an issue of overlap because there is plenty of opportunity in lots of places to make those investments. A co-ordinated approach is needed, but I do not think it is an overlap. In terms of the operation of the scheme, it is always challenging in a situation like this to provide capital grants to people and get the right balance between ensuring that you are confident that what is going to be provided for will actually happen and making it simple enough to gain entry. It is one of the things that WRAP itself in fact is always working on reviewing as to where we are in terms of providing our stakeholders with that kind of access. I think the fund is learning as they go through how you go about making that work properly. The Committee suspended from 3.59 pm to 4.18 pm for a division in the House Q189 Rev Smyth: You mentioned that WRAP had funded a study for an all-island wood reprocessing facility. What was the outcome of that study? Mr Ward: Let me get on the record that we did notice that there had been some misunderstanding about that. We have done a study on behalf of a wood processor in Northern Ireland on the all-island market for wood reprocessing. That was a piece of commercial advice to them about the prospects for the market. I think we are probably limited in what we can tell you about that. Q190 Rev Smyth: It was not actually a facility; it was just guiding them? Mr Creed: It was a specific business in Northern Ireland that was looking at the market opportunities. We were trying to help them prepare a plan that would help them raise funding for their activities. That is my understanding of the market conditions. Q191 Rev Smyth: Some respondents have spoken of the desirability of an all-Ireland paper mill. Are there any reasons why a similar study was not done for paper? Mr Creed: There actually is a study about to be tendered on 15 September to investigate the potential for an all-Ireland paper mill, which WRAP is part funding. Q192 Rev Smyth: Would that be developed in Northern Ireland or somewhere else? Mr Ward: Where the mill would be sited, or if indeed it is sensible to have a mill, is what the study is going to be about. Particularly when it comes to paper, decisions about where paper mills are sited are very complex. They are very large and very expensive installations. As for what guides those who make those investments, traditionally it used to be where the trees were, but these days it is much more guided by where the markets are. The availability of paper to recycle is not necessarily the thing which will drive people to want to invest in Ireland, in the whole of the island or part of it. It will be a question about whether they actually have a market for the output of the mill and whether that suits their overall market strategy. That is the thing which needs to be investigated. As I said earlier, it is possible that you could take a slightly broader view about where paper is reprocessed and still produce very good value for the citizens of Northern Ireland. As in the Shutton case, a lot of them are supplying that mill. There are different ways of looking at it but we do need to investigate what the opportunities are and what the market possibilities are. Mr Creed: The objectives of the study are to investigate what could be done with the paper. A mill is an option. Another option is an auto paper sorter, which is a piece of equipment that allows you to separate grades of paper to be recycled. Certain types of paper are of much higher value and, rather than have a mill, you might just have a paper sorter that allows you to identify the higher grade and sell it on to a better production and the lower grade can be used locally. Q193 Rev Smyth: I understand that and we also assumed that there were such mills in the past and paper producers. I am more interested in the economic side since WRAP, I understand, is actually funded by the UK Government, the Scottish Assembly and something from Northern Ireland. I just wondered whether the Republic is also contributing to your research? Mr Ward: The actual research we were just referring to, this study, is done 50:50. We are paying half and the Republic of Ireland is paying the other half. Q194 Rev Smyth: Does WRAP concentrate on developing markets for materials captured from municipal wastes, or do you use suppliers and others who are in the market? Mr Ward: WRAP is an organisation concerned with resource efficiency. Although there is a lot of political attention at the moment being driven by the Landfill Directive and the European Landfill Directive which is related to municipal waste, as an organisation and philosophically as well, we are concerned with the whole of the waste treatment. Just from a practical point of view, many of the facilities you need will service both municipal waste and commercial industrial waste as well. We certainly do not restrict ourselves to the municipal waste agreement. I think it is very important that when you are looking at the whole of the waste, you look at the whole of the waste stream because municipal-al waste does seem a relatively small proportion of the total waste issue. We certainly approach the whole thing rather than one fraction of it. Q195 Mr McGrady: Many respondents have indicated the concern they have with procurement policy which fosters the demand for recyclable materials. You yourselves have a programme or policy dedicated to that. You have mentioned the initiative on sustainable construction in which the Northern Ireland Central Procurement Directorate was involved. Where has this led? Have there in fact been any significant changes in the advancement of this area? Mr Creed: It is encouraging that if you look back at where we are coming from and get some basis on which to take action, it is good that the waste plan that Northern Ireland has produced highlights the fact that procurement, particularly in the public sector, can actually have an impact. So there is a beginning point for seeing government thinking carefully about how they use their money. We never ask them to spend any more money but where they could supply it at parity or of equal value, there is now an opportunity. We have looked at various areas to try and make things happen. We have talked to the central procurement people in Northern Ireland about what is going on. They are starting to look at adopting a policy but at the moment they are still at that point. I would like to see some more movement towards adopting the policy and then actually using some of the tools that we are putting together to make it happen. You have to have a top level framework. That is being installed at the moment I believe. Q196 Mr McGrady: In your response you have used the words "thinking about" and "starting on". Does that mean that the green procurement activities of the government departments in Northern Ireland in fact as submitted have not been fulfilled to date? Are they behind schedule and, if so, are they seriously behind schedule? Mr Creed: I think you have to recognise that procurement is a very challenging area because in the supply chain side of things, for example you can use a capital grants programme to encourage someone to process some material to get it into the supply chain through a large capital grant. To get people to buy things that are made from recycled materials you have to talk to the individuals that are making the buying decisions about what they are doing. That is a much longer-term process. The first thing to do is to get your policy correct so that you have the right starting point and guidelines. The people in the procurement departments as far as I know are thinking carefully about how they can get started on that because if you get the policy right, you can build down into the actual directives and then on to practice, which will get things correct. I welcome the fact that they are thinking about it carefully. There is obviously a need to get moving quickly, but it is not happening that much faster in any other part of government. Q197 Mr McGrady: Could you give us some indication of how much of a boost that public procurement would be to the market developing? Mr Creed: Yes. At the moment, our belief and understanding is that there is about £1.5 billion a year spent by Northern Ireland's public sector. A 10 per cent shift in that procurement activity would have a huge impact on buying recycled products. Q198 Mr McGrady: Have you any immediate recommendations to make to expedite and enhance the activities of government departments at the moment? Mr Creed: The recommendation is that it is important to ensure that they frame their policy in a way that will allow the people who are actually implementing it to find it easy to do it. It is very important that the individuals who are making the procurement decisions are clear about what is being asked of them and are able to make it happen. I often see policies that say wonderful things about sustainable development but they do not actually help you as a person practically trying to make it happen. I would recommend a really simple, clear policy, not one that says "you must do this" but one that says "think about these things" and leads you down to your application. It would be worth considering setting a target or two or challenging people to set their own targets or measures of performance so that they have something to work towards. Q199 Chairman: Can I be clear on that in terms of how you encourage a public authority, a government, to set that target? What is your criterion? What are you working on? Are you working on costs in terms of achievement? Are you working on their social conscience? Mr Creed: The way that our procurement approach works is that there are two kinds of opportunities in any sort of selling/buying situation. One is that you are buying something because it is fit for purpose; and suitable for the applications at the right price. The other reason that you might buy something is because it has a differentiating characteristic in it. When it comes to something that is recycled, it is either going to be differentiated because it is recycled or it is going to be fit for purpose and of a similar price value and will work and be supplied at the right amount. One way in which you can make it differentiated in the public sector is by taking the fact that the public sector has made a commitment to lead the way by setting some policies that ask people to consider recycled products, and in that way the recycled product will come to the fore and be considered because it has that differentiating feature. I still would not expect anybody to buy it unless it was either at price parity or very close or else in some cases, for example using paper as insulation material, it might have exceedingly better performance characteristics for a given application, in which case you might be willing to pay a premium because you are getting more of what you are asking for. We operate on that basis in the public sector. Working for sustainable procurement is all about looking at resource productivity right down to saying, "You should at least consider this". The policy should set clear guidance that says, "Think about these things". It does not have to say that you must buy them because we cannot override the basic issues of price, quality and fitness for purpose, but often it is just as necessary to get people to bring those factors into their consideration as well. Q200 Mark Tami: Staying on the procurement issue, and we are looking at private procurement now, what is WRAP's role in promoting that? Do you see a role for WRAP in that? Mr Creed: We do most definitely and in that area it is much harder to create a differentiation because there are many organisations that have what they might call corporate social responsibility issues. They are interested in doing that, but in the private sector ultimately price and particularly quality and fitness for purpose come into it and it is a mix. They will pay extra, as I have just illustrated in the insulation application. If they are getting what they want, they will pay more, but the majority of the time it is about finding products that already exist that are at price parity and suitable for the applications. The way we have gone about that is that is to look at particular market sectors and identify where there are big opportunities, particularly in tonnages, to deliver recycled products. Then we have gone and looked into those specific areas to identify which products are currently available that have recycled content. We have done a great deal of research into what the current recycled content of building structures is, which is between 12 and 15 per cent, and we have investigated what can be achieved, which is closer to 20 per cent. There are opportunities there. We would never ask anyone to spend any more money than they are currently spending on something. All we are asking them to do is to consider other products because we do not want just to be an organisation that writes guidance and creates best practice and says "here is a list of things you might want to consider". We are working on a programme at the moment. If any of you are aware of organisations that might be suitable to be involved, we would be glad to hear about that. We are looking for trail blazers. These are organisations that are currently doing something, particularly in the construction sector or in facilities management, that are interested in working with us to see if some of the guidance and the Quick Wins list that we have created would be suitable for their use, and, by working with organisations that are trying to apply it, understand more about the challenges that it brings. Then we will produce more information and share those case studies with others to try and encourage them to try the same thing. Q201 Mark Tami: Is procurement given the importance you think it deserves or are we rather slow on the uptake, as it were, on this? Mr Creed: The first question I would ask as to whether it is being given the importance it deserves is "by whom?" Q202 Mark Tami: Are we tackling this issue and looking at it or are we just tending to address this as a secondary point? Mr Ward: It is the case that getting an awareness of what is available and the benefits of buying something is absolutely crucial, in our view, to getting it starting to work properly. At the end of the day, if people are not buying the products, there is no way they are going to be able to recycle them. An awful lot of recycled material is simply embodied in things and people are completely unaware that something is made of recycled material. If you buy a stainless steel kettle, roughly 30 per cent of it will have been recycled from somewhere. You do not need to make a song and dance about it. There are major opportunities for public sector procurers to do more to stimulate the market, increase market demand and kick start this process. The UK as a whole, all the governments, has been trying to get this going but the research we do indicates that even central government departments that for years now have been committed are not actually achieving this. There are real blockages in the way in which public authorities are getting to grips with procurement issues. I have to say that the EU has just published a report which makes it clear that the UK Government is no different from every government in the EU. Again, they are pointing to the fact that the processes which have been delegated, on the whole from a very low level of organisation and the control which is needed to insist on different procurement, does not really exist in the same way. Therefore, it is the process of getting people aware and making it easier which is really important. The average person going out to buy something does not have time to inquire into the environmental potential. They need to be able to consult something where someone has done that work for them and to know that if they go to this catalogue, they are buying something which meets the requirements and that is the end of the matter. That is the sort of work we are doing. We are trying to make easy for people simply to say, "That is what I want. That is where I can get it from. Thank you. The decision is made". There is a big opportunity which we are not taking yet. That is why we are spending so much time and method on it. Q203 Chairman: That is a critically fundamental issue, is it not, about visibility? Surely, more work needs to be done very quickly on the catalogue issue and making sure that people do not have to go through that search process and thus reduce their research costs? That surely should be work that WRAP is undertaking to make it very visible? Mr Creed: We could supply you with some examples of the work that we are doing. We are happy to send someone along if you want to look at it. I can organise that. We are aware that this is not an easy task and so you have to work with the people that are trusted by the procurers currently. We need to work with the intermediaries as well, and so we are looking at how we can get buying collectives associated with local authority activities and things like that to put more recycled products in there guides or alternatively highlight where there are recycled products. It is about labelling as well. That is another challenging area. We recognise that is an important part of the work and we are doing it. Chairman: That brings us on nicely to a number of questions that we wanted to ask on standards. Q204 Mr Bailey: I confess that, until we did this project, it had escaped me that there did not appear to be an acceptable scientific definition of "composting". I understand that this has caused some problems to local authorities. The English Best Value standards do define this relative to a standard for soil improvers. Could you say what role there is for the PAS100 standard, which you mention in your submission, in satisfying the needs of local authorities in terms of defining what is, or what is not, compost? Mr Ward: Our simple position is that we have put a lot of effort into PAS100 to try to define something which meets a particular requirement. The problem about compost is that it is an old word, it has had many meanings, and it has also been reinterpreted to suit other people's words. If you pressed us, we would say that we mean by "compost" something that is introduced in a way specified in the PAS100, something which will perform the functions which are described there. We have already mentioned that this can be given force and impact. The action taken by SEPA in Scotland is exactly the sort of positive action which makes it clear that if you get something up to this standard, it is not waste any more but it is a product; it has a purpose, a function and a market value. We are concerned that there are people who will want to pass on soil conditioners - and I use that word generically - as compost. We think it is very important for market confidence that consumers know that when something is described as compost it should meet the PAS100 standard and know that it is what it is. We do not want people undermining the market by selling inferior products with the wrong labels on them. We put our flag on PAS100 basically. Q205 Mr Bailey: And not on sub-standard compost? Just to follow on, from the fact that you are working on appropriate British standards to enable more use of and greater confidence in recycled materials, could there be assumed to be recognition of this and the benefits flowing from it in Northern Ireland as a result of your work? Mr Creed: There is a composting organisation in Northern Ireland that has already certified to PAS100 and is enjoying the benefits of that in that they are able to sell their product into garden centres in other growing mediums so that people can have full assurance that the product is of high quality. It has definitely had an impact in Northern Ireland. Q206 Chairman: What is the picture outside of compost? Mr Creed: Outside of compost, the next closest thing is something announced this week, a manufacturing activity for recycling glass that is using a crystallised process. We have PAS102 that defines various grades of glass for recycling, and they may well start to use that for some of the applications. While we were not directly involved in what was going on with that investment, many end markets are using it in golf course sand and considering using it in water filtration and for grit-blasting applications. Those are all defined standards in the glass standard, so they would probably be producing it to that standard in order to meet the market requirements. That is covered by much of the work that we have been doing. It is indirectly a big benefit but perhaps not in a direct sense. Q207 Mr Pound: I was pondering the etymology of the word "compost", whether it was low Dutch, Latin or Norman French and whether it had any relation to "compost" as in healthy. That is irrelevant. We heard from the CBI about other organisations such as the Arena Network. How closely do you work with them? You have touched on this already. For the record, would you like to say how closely you work with other organisations and initiatives, particularly Arena? Mr Creed: Our liaison officer is in regular contact with the Arena Network representatives. I know that in Northern Ireland a lot of the recycling officers who work in the local authorities are part of the Arena Network. Several of those people have been trained through our training programme; in fact the number is two-thirds of those. We have had 38 delegates so far on three courses and a lot of recycling officers come from that network, so you will understand they are funded that way. There are many linkages in these activities. We are working quite closely with them. We try to be regularly involved with the CBI as well. For example, our liaison officer is involved in the steering committee of the Full Circle activity in Belfast, which is a similar activity. Q208 Mr Pound: I am impressed by that. What about other organisations? Does your liaison officer have a roving brief and does he or she keep an eye out for new initiatives? I am particularly thinking about on a sub-regional basis and localised or even parochial initiatives, of which there are some. Mr Creed: The liaison officer's role is partly about representing all of WRAP's activities in Northern Ireland so that the people of Northern Ireland can gain the best benefit out of what WRAP is doing and at the same time identify the opportunities for WRAP to integrate. He is always on the lookout for new organisations emerging and activities in which we might become involved. He regularly meets with all kinds of local initiatives. He makes presentations about what WRAP is doing. He tries to keep generally involved. You should be aware that liaison officers also have a part role in the actual delivery of our business support service. That means he is out talking with businessmen in the reprocessing sector on the ground about the problems that they are facing. Often that services other organisations and activities that are going on which might be related. He is busy out the all the time with an ear to the ground. Q209 Mr Pound: Is it a two-way street, Mr Creed? Are you taking WRAP to the parish level as well as taking the parish level to WRAP? Mr Creed: Yes. We are very interested. Where our programmes do offer capital grants in Northern Ireland, for example, and other types of support, then one of the key roles for the liaison officer is to ensure that people are aware that those opportunities exist and he will take them down to that level. Every year we have a stakeholders' meeting in Northern Ireland. That is coming up on 15th October. The liaison officer is out there ensuring that we get representation from all the different bodies right down to the parish level and that they come along and talk to us about how they feel WRAP is delivering these things that we should be doing or not doing. Perhaps they want to tell us how well we are doing, although that is less likely in thee matters. Q210 Mr Pound: This is a slightly technical question. Obviously you are situated now within the DOE in Northern Ireland. The Welsh model is slightly different as it is linked to the Welsh Development Agency. Do you have a view as to whether the Development Agency matrix is more appropriate or that of the DOE, or is this historic? Mr Creed: I think it is historic because the sponsor is the DOE. I am very keen and we would like to work with Invest Northern Ireland as much as possible because their activities are complementary to ours. They are interested in inward investment, job creation, business capacity building, that sort of thing. We are interested in trying to make that happen in the recycling sector. We can complement each other with different levels of support in terms of our funding and other activities. I am very keen to see as much work with them as possible. Where the actual liaison officer is located is really a matter of how we can ensure that we get the best co-operation through all three parties and he may be some of the time in both places. Q211 Mr Pound: If you were starting with an immaculately recycled blank piece of paper, hopefully from the all-Ireland paper mill, and you were designing a structure for the future - and I am asking personally or professionally - would it be with the Development Agency or with the DOE or both? I am talking about the physical location. Mr Creed: I would suggest both. I take the example of Scotland where the situation is reversed. Our liaison officer in Scotland actually sits with the department of the waste management people in the Scottish Executive but he has strong ties with Scottish Enterprise and he visits them at times. Both options work quite well. It is just a matter of ensuring that there is an awareness of the total requirements of what happens. Q212 Mr Luke: My question is concerned with the prognosis in your report of a healthier future for recycling in the province. You have your liaison officer. What other mechanisms have you in place to energise these kinds of activities to take you from where you are today to a really all-round or all singing and dancing policy in this regard? Mr Ward: We should stress that although our liaison officer is, as it were; our person on the ground in Northern Ireland, everything that WRAP does is made available to anybody in Northern Ireland who says they want it. Our liaison officer is not the only method of delivering those services. We do have other ways and other WRAP staff now visit the province in order to assist. Mr Creed: I can give a few examples. In terms of other activities, we have also worked with 20 businesses that have made inquires of us from Northern Ireland to date. We have provided over £30,000 of direct support to three businesses that are working on developing funding ability. We have had one application to our eQuip scheme through the purchase of assets through that guarantee I described to you earlier. I have already told you about training 38 delegates through our recycling managers' programme. We have also already provided 22 delegates for a course on compost and quality training, as it happens, in Northern Ireland and there is another one to come. One business, as I have already said, has achieved PAS100. That means that a lot of other people besides the liaison officer are in Northern Ireland on a regular basis. Part of the liaison officer's role when he is talking particularly to businesses is to identify whether there is a technical support requirement. Often the technical specialists from glass, plastic and paper go along with him to visit people. It is not just the liaison officer who is there regularly; a number of people from WRAP come into Northern Ireland. I myself visit at least every quarter and meet with our sponsor and discuss what has been happening. There is quite a lot of activity going on there. Q213 Mr Luke: You have made the point, and we talked about the project and money, and obviously funding has been set aside to assist you in that at £1 million. That is not a great deal of money when you look at the immense task facing you. Do you think there is more scope for the European Union, given that you talk about the European market and the relationships you have with Northern Ireland? You also have relationships with the Republic and with Scotland. I wondered if you think there is a bigger role for the European Union in this as to what we can gain from this to make sure that there is a much more European approach to it. Mr Creed: I go back to something I said earlier. One of the benefits that comes from much of the PAS102 funding that is already available from Europe is that it has different objectives in trying to make the reason for the funding happen: it is about capacity building and business creation. It is just as important a part of the recycling as actually extracting from the waste stream. I think it is quite positive as long as they keep funding in that way that it is complementary because it means that we can all work together and there is less risk of us being accused of duplicate effort. One of the big challenges that we are always being asked to explain, and I am sure you will respect this, is that we would not want to see ourselves spending money on something on which another government-funded agency is also spending money. If Europe starts spending money on the same target areas, we would have even more challenges in deciding who was spending the money on what. If they are spending the money on helping businesses to develop and we are spending money on helping businesses to get into recycling and develop, then these are very complementary activities. If they keep putting in more money in that way, that is great. It also adds a lot of discipline to the sector early on to have a combination of grants for what they are actually doing and then challenges about being commercially sound. Those funds often give that as an initial starting point and it adds a lot of value as well. Mr Ward: It does reinforce the benefits of closer working with Invest Northern Ireland if we are to have the ability to link across those two trains of thought. There are possibilities there for further development. Chairman: Gentlemen, we are grateful to you for your submissions. We were also encouraged by the encouraging end to your submission when you said that the sectors were well placed to create, exploit and participate in the Northern Ireland market. Thank you for your evidence this afternoon and thank you for the evidence you have provided us so far. We will take into account your comments this afternoon when writing our final report. |