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UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 637-viii House of COMMONS MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE Northern Ireland Affairs Committee (Northern Ireland Affairs Sub-Committee)
Waste Management Strategy in Northern Ireland
Wednesday 17 November 2004 ANGELA SMITH MP, STEPHEN ASTON and NOEL SCOTT Evidence heard in Public Questions 346 - 393
USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT
Oral Evidence Taken before the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee (Northern Ireland Affairs Sub-Committee) on Wednesday 17 November 2004 Members present Mr Tony Clarke, in the Chair Mr Adrian Bailey Mr Roy Beggs Mr Gregory Campbell Mr Iain Luke Mr Eddie McGrady Mr Stephen Pound The Reverend Martin Smyth ________________ Memoranda submitted by Department of the Environment
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Angela Smith, a Member of the House, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office; and Stephen Aston, Environment and Heritage Service, and Noel Scott, Planning Service, Department of the Environment; examined. Q346 Chairman: Minister, thank you for appearing before us. We are told there is a division at 4.01, so apologies that we may be messed about a bit. I did say to a Member earlier on, I shall not say who the Member was, "We've got a division at 4.01," and they said, "Well, it's only a minister; that'll be fine." Angela Smith: I can talk very quickly, if that helps. Chairman: No. When we have witnesses who come across from Northern Ireland, they often wonder what is happening when we disappear. You are very welcome. Before we start, Mr Beggs has a declaration. Mr Beggs: Can I register an interest in a landfill site for inert waste. Q347 Chairman: That is noted. Minister, if we can crack on with the evidence session. You are the final witness to appear before us and almost all of the other witnesses have pointed us towards what is perceived as a lack of leadership in respect of waste management matters. Some of that was pointed at the Assembly, when the Assembly was up and running, but of course some of it is directed towards the role of Government. In recent evidence, officials suggested that going beyond what is laid down in EU Directives could be seen as adding too much burden to the industries which seek to comply. What reassurance can you give us that the DoE is prepared to give a strong lead on waste management in Northern Ireland, given that recent evidence suggests the Department is unwilling to aim for anything other than basic compliance with European Directives? Angela Smith: Thank you. Can I say, first of all, I welcome the opportunity to be in front of you today and I have been reading all the evidence that you took from my officials and others and the depth which you went into on the issue, so I understand where the criticisms come from. Perhaps I can offer some reassurance. I do think the Government has both a role and a responsibility to act as a leader in these regards, and with officials we have been discussing how best Government approaches that. I think it is three-fold. One is the development of strategy to ensure that we have got a strategic approach to dealing with waste, and that is something, as I know you are aware, on which work has been undertaken. There is an example the Government can set, and I will say something more about procurement and waste minimisation in a moment, but also there is a role, I think, of Government taking direct action ourselves. You mentioned not being willing to go beyond EU Directives. I am not sure that is the case, but it has been a challenge to ensure that we meet EU Directives and the transposition of Directives has been a challenge for Northern Ireland. I can say we have now implemented some 45 pieces of legislation, which has brought Northern Ireland up to date with the UK and our EU partners, so we have made considerable progress in that regard. Also I think there is a role for Government in regulatory reform, investment in financial support, which no doubt we will touch on during the course of this session, but also a very strong role for awareness in education. The Government has to take the lead because we are the only body that can do so. The Waste Management Plans that we have in process now do satisfy Europe, but also they are pretty sound building-blocks which we can build on in terms of policy and in terms of the targets that we need to meet and changes beyond that. The team we have dealing with this has grown significantly and shows a level of commitment from Government. I understand when the Waste Strategy Plans were first being undertaken we were talking about a team of around 15 and now we are talking about over 100 people in that same team, so I think that is a commitment of Government's role as a leader. I am sure some Members here, particularly those from Northern Ireland, will be aware of the very strong messages through the environmental campaigns which we have undertaken, with well-known faces from programmes like 'Give My Head Peace', undertaken with a sense of humour, identifying what individuals can do and to minimise waste themselves and take on this role. That has been effective, and all the evidence we have is that, to the public, to business and the community as a whole, they have been effective. There are also the Government's procurement forces. That, I think, presents us with both opportunities and challenges, about which no doubt we will say more. The Green Procurement Guide was adopted by us in September 2004. Again, that is a foundation for looking at procurement across Government as a whole, and that is one where certainly we can take a lead. What I think we need to do is monitor that very closely. It is no good issuing a guide and just hoping it is going to be implemented, so very strong monitoring of that. In September, that was introduced in conjunction with the Department of Finance and Personnel, monitoring the use of that and implementation over the next year. If that is not effective then I think we have to re‑evaluate how we ensure that guidance is taken or we have to do something more, but we are very conscious that Government can take a lead in procurement, and should do so. Q348 Chairman: The industry itself and those involved in waste management still feel, however, that there is a general lack of strong leadership within Government. One of the comments which has been made to us is that if we really want the public to take on board the 'Wake up to Waste' campaign we could start by asking other departments in Government to wake up to waste, inasmuch as they are not making it easy for us to reach our targets and for us to reach our goals. Would you say that is fair criticism? Angela Smith: The Department are involved. We now have the Action Plan and that sets out how we can reduce waste, but also we are asking other departments to publish in their annual reports how they are reducing waste and that is undertaken by the Permanent Secretaries Group. I think the support that we have got at that level of Government, with the Permanent Secretaries, does show a sense of leadership that is coming through. Perhaps we have been a bit slower than we could have been, but I do think that awareness is there. The steering group which monitors that and undertakes that work is represented by all the major stakeholders in Government, so I think that is a positive step we have taken to address those concerns. I understand the concerns, but I hope the role that we are taking and how robust we have been in our expectations of Government will lead towards perhaps a better understanding of what we are doing and try to get action on our part as well. Q349 Mr McGrady: Good afternoon, Minister. In your response you did touch upon the 'green procurement' activity in Northern Ireland, and certainly there is some encouragement from what is happening there but, I am sure you would agree, it is much slower than the strategy provided for. In view of the fact that the guidance documents in respect of green procurement encourage the contracting authorities to consider the matter, is not that a very weak approach and should not a much stronger Directive, in terms of responsibility for procuring goods recycling, be applied? Angela Smith: I think that will become evident in the course of the monitoring. That is why I mentioned in my previous answer that I think we do need to ensure that, along with the Department of Finance and Personnel, we monitor properly the guidance and how it is implemented. Certainly I think if we are not satisfied that it is implemented to the level that we would expect, the results we would expect, we would have to reconsider that. It does present challenges. I think the issue we do have to look at is a cultural change across departments. We have seen already the use of, for example, recycled paper for photocopying. That is excellent and I am not decrying it in any way, but we need to up our game a little bit and look at far more strategic and major Government procurement issues. I think the guidance is a very good step forward in that direction. The monitoring will show how effective that is, and it has been in place only since September. If we are not satisfied then we need to look at alternative measures to make this more effective. Q350 Mr McGrady: If you did a short-term review, would you consider that procurement policy is not really welcome, it is not trans-departmental, for instance? This is actually to assist the creation of the recycling markets. Would you consider introducing a code of conduct for departments and others to follow? Angela Smith: Certainly, if it did not work, we would need to look at making it more effective, and that would be one way of doing it. We have an environmental management system in place. I would expect to look for a year. I think a year would be a good time to see if it was being effective, with obviously interim monitoring along that line in the meantime. As I say, if it does not we have to do more, certainly. Q351 Mr McGrady: You did mention a year, and that has anticipated my next question. You have the aim of producing a revised strategy by the end of next year. Does that again not give a wrong signal, of not having urgency about the matter and sort of letting people sit back a wee bit instead of driving it forward in a very dynamic way? Angela Smith: I hope it does not, and if that is the case it is something we need to ensure that we get the message across, that we are not sitting back and waiting to see what happens, we are being very proactive across the strategy. If you look at the work which has been undertaken by the Department to ensure awareness of the strategy and compliance, implementation, I think the message would get across that we are not just sitting back and waiting. I think, in terms of monitoring, you have to give a reasonable time to be able to judge effectiveness. It is not a case of sitting and waiting in that process. Mr McGrady: There is also a great sense of urgency in prioritising the thrust of the inter-departmental activity, particularly creating new markets for recycling. Thank you, Minister. Q352 Reverend Smyth: I think that our concerns about timing reflect what we have heard about the problem with this planning system, and of course about uncertainties around finance and procurement. On planning, of course, we were given some limited reassurance from officials, but surely the fact remains that the delays in deciding planning applications are impacting upon the objective of the waste management procedures, and they are considerable. Can you give us any assurances that planning applications will be treated in a timely fashion whilst, at the same time, respecting local opinions? Angela Smith: Yes, I think I can give some assurances. I know there has been concern about delays and the length of time which some planning applications have taken. Part of that has been, I was looking it up earlier, particularly on some of the landfill sites, some of those delays were due to not wanting to undertake a planning application and make a decision on that in isolation but as part of a strategic overview. We had to look at the Waste Management Strategy coming into force and the Waste Management Plans, and of course the Landfill Directive meant that some of those plans previously had to be amended to take account of the Landfill Directive. There have been indications and problems with that and I think you can correct those. I think there are things we are doing now which will help in that regard. Certainly we need to provide assistance to applicants when they are making applications. One of the problems has been that the quality of some applications has meant it has been difficult for the consultees to make an assessment and that has drawn out the process. We are now preparing checklists of requirements for the applicants, so when they make an application they can have a quick guide of the kinds of things they need to ensure they have available for us. We have advice on the website which will help those making applications to speed them up more quickly, and encourage those applicants who are putting something forward to seek screening pre-application help and advice before they have an environmental impact assessment. There is a whole range of procedures I think we can do to be more proactive with the applicant to assist that. There are contradictions in this. I was at a meeting recently with an MEP who brought with him a delegation on an issue where a company had not had a decision on an application, in this case it was a company which deals with waste from meat processing. Chairman: We are caught by a division. My suggestion is that we suspend for 15 minutes or five minutes after the last vote. The Committee suspended from 4.01 pm to 4.25 pm for a division in the House. Q353 Chairman: Contrary to reports of up to 20 votes, we had one. Before we were interrupted, Reverend Martin Smyth had asked a question and, Minister, you were talking about a delegation you had received from an MEP? Angela Smith: I was, indeed. The reason I was mentioning this was really just to highlight some of the difficulties we face as a Department in terms of enforcement. In this particular case, an MEP brought a delegation to see me and the issue was around the planning application for a facility which dealt with the waste products and by-products of meat production and there was some concern that there was a delay on the part of the Department in processing this. That is not the case. Actually we are waiting for the appropriate environmental statement from the applicants, but because of the delay on that my Department had to talk to the meat producers to explain the difficulties to them and that if they continued to use the facility they would be acting illegally. It was appropriate that we did so because obviously we need to ensure that any waste facility acts legally. In the course of the delegation, the MEP suggested that we had threatened these people and no enforcement action should be taken. Obviously, what the Department is trying to do is ensure that we keep within the regulations, that we act appropriately and give appropriate advice. Of course, that causes contradictions when there is a need for that facility and somebody sees the Department being heavy-handed, or a perception of being heavy-handed. I just raise that to show the difficulties the Department has in that regard, in ensuring that we do the right thing, to ensure that the legislation which is in place is enforced, but it causes some difficulties as well. Q354 Reverend Smyth: You did say, if I remember correctly, that one of the difficulties was improperly filled in applications, because we understand that there have been very few applications for non-landfill sites. I wonder, is that the cause of the problem of planning permission not being forthcoming? Angela Smith: I am seeking some enlightenment on this, Mr Chairman. Yes, there have been very few new applications. I am not sure that is entirely the reason why, because, if we look across the number of applications we have had in on planning and the pressures on planning, there is this problem, I think, that some people do not recognise the information they need to supply. The measures I have outlined already, that is why we are taking those measures, to ensure that we help the applicant and assist the applicant in making a good application. That does not mean there is a fast track and an automatic right to have that application accepted. What it does ensure is that it is a good application on which our consultees can then give a response as quickly as possible. Mr Beggs: Could it be that the scale of project which is required to meet the criteria which have been established is limiting the number of applications for landfill sites in Northern Ireland? Chairman: Are you talking about disillusionment from applicants, their feelings about the scale of the task? Mr Beggs: There is an impression, Chairman, that the Department wants to limit the number of landfill sites with a municipal base and, as a consequence, they are expecting monster-size applications. Q355 Chairman: I do not know if you are able to give an answer to that, Minister; if not, perhaps a note would do? Angela Smith: I do not know if it will be an answer which satisfies Mr Beggs but I will do my best. In a sense, the strategy outlines the number of sites; that is laid down in the strategy. The criterion has to be that a site would need to be economically viable and also sustainable. Within that criterion we will do our best. It would be very difficult for me to say why somebody did not make an application and I accept there have been delays, but I hope that the measures I have outlined show how seriously we are taking that to address those issues. Chairman: I do know there is concern and concern has been expressed to us at the small number of applications for non-landfill treatment capacity. That is something that I know others have raised with us. Q356 Mr Pound: Professor Boyd told us, in previous evidence, of a case which had been outstanding for eight and a half years, and Noel Scott, on 26 October, actually if I may speak through you to you, referred to two cases, I think, which had actually been passed to the Planning and Management Board and then on to the Minister. What concerns me overwhelmingly is the impact on ARC21 Grouping of the closure of Dargan Road. The five-year window close, I think, is for May 2005. That means that we have got to have a new, major landfill site to replace Dargan Road for the whole of the Greater Belfast and Eastern Region. What concerns me is that if the EA is taking 12 months to grant planning permissions in GB what will the Environment and Heritage Department be able to do within that timescale, which seems to me to be shrinking by the minute? To try to put it together, Minister, do you honestly feel that the present planning process is sufficiently robust and responsive to enable planning permission to be given in order for there to be an alternative to Dargan Road at the time of closure? Angela Smith: Yes. I think the planning process measures which are in place now do address that. The applications which Mr Scott mentioned to you previously and I think you have been aware of, the ones which have been in Belfast Hills, the Greater Belfast area, I think I may have said earlier that there were very special reasons for delay in those. We had to operate within a strategy, and at the time when those applications were coming in, particularly Cottonmount, there was not a strategy in place. So the context of those did mean they were delayed significantly. I am now expecting those to be with me very soon, within a matter of weeks, so a decision will be taken, and we imagine, with a post-plan decision, they could be up and running with a licence from EHS within six to nine months. I think things are progressing, but we take on board the criticism of DFRS (?) there has been, but I think that was partly outside our control, but we did need to have a strategy to operate in a proper strategic context in order to give planning permission. Q357 Mr Pound: What concerns me, Chairman, is that the Sub-Committee was greatly exercised by the fact of the amount of solid waste disposal which has been sent to Scotland. Putting ourselves in the mind of a commercial developer, facing this delay in the grant of a planning permission and the confusion over the PPCs, I am just wondering how a developer would be expected to meet the needs on a commercial basis within this particular context. Are you convinced, Minister, that we are now in a different environment and that were I a potential landfill developer I would be sufficiently reassured by what you have just told me to invest a great deal of money without an overbearing amount of risk? Angela Smith: I will do my very best to reassure you. Q358 Mr Pound: You would always reassure me personally, obviously, but imagine I am a real person? Angela Smith: I would never suggest you were anything other. I think the changes I have outlined and how we are operating would give that reassurance. My expectation would be, for any new application that came in, now that we have the strategic context to work in, we would be talking around 12 months or so. Of course, we have the Strategic Investment Board looking at these issues as well, in terms of the financing of them. I think now there is the issue that we can move forward much more quickly, but it will come down to the quality of application and I do think we can assist applicants in that with the measures we have in place. Q359 Mr Pound: The Environment and Heritage Department, to my knowledge, have not issued a single permit yet. Is that correct? Have there been any permits issued? Angela Smith: I will defer to Mr Aston on that. Mr Aston: There are a number of applications for permits. I am not sure of the exact number which have been processed. I will have to supply the Committee with that information. There have been very few applications made and your reference earlier in the question was, even with planning permission, how long will it take to get a permit, because our sister agency, the Environment Agency in England and Wales, is taking a considerable period of time. Q360 Mr Pound: It is about 12 months, I think? Mr Aston: We think we will beat that by at least three months. Q361 Reverend Smyth: Can I take it that you will be dealing with the applicants, but what is being done to reassure people who may have concerns, particularly with forthcoming applications for even more contentious developments, so that they may be reassured that is not going to have an impact adversely either upon their health or their community? Angela Smith: That is a very difficult one and we have tried at all stages, I think. In the evidence you have taken prior to now we have been congratulating the steps that the Department have taken to ensure public engagement. I will just check the amounts. Something like £2.3 million has been spent on public awareness programmes and a further £500,000, half a million, on school education programmes. In terms of engaging with the public, we have tried to do this enormously. I think there is a difficulty that sometimes people do not engage necessarily on a strategic level, but when something comes down to what is happening on their doorstep then they have very great concerns about it. Currently I have a case of an asbestos facility where EHS and Health and Safety are advising that this is safe, that it is the appropriate place for asbestos, for appropriate storage, and it was a real concern in the local community. It does not matter whether or not that is based on scientific fact, the fact remains that people remain concerned, so there are issues around that. What we do have is the Northern Ireland-wide system of the BPEO, the best practicable environmental option, which Members very often had some discussions about previously, and I think that does address the situation. That is being reviewed currently as well, but we are very much aware of the need to engage the public, I think, at a strategic level as well as individual application level. Q362 Reverend Smyth: What volume, or capacity, is considered to be needed for a sustainable landfill site? Is there any standard that you have? Mr Aston: There is no written standard that I am aware of. I think the comparisons which are made are on a geographic basis and also there is a Northern Ireland Landfill Allowance Scheme, which runs our targets. There is a trading scheme in the rest of the UK, it is a direct allowance scheme to ensure compliance, and that is part of it because there are other wastes to be considered as well. Angela Smith: We are aware of the responsibility, which we take extremely seriously. Members may be aware of the 'Duty of Care' road shows which were undertaken with producers and the response we had from businesses. I attended one of the road shows and spoke with some of those who attended, and that was extremely well received because we had been proactive in going out to businesses, to members of the public and providing information. I think it would be remiss if we sat back and waited for them to come to us. We have been extremely proactive in that regard. Q363 Reverend Smyth: You are obviously aware that the Planning Service has a role in this whole business, and recently, Minister, you had to pull people from one section to deal with backlogs in another. Would you accept that the Planning Service is in somewhat of a crisis at the moment and may have an adverse impact upon the development of waste management? Angela Smith: No, but I would accept that there could have been a crisis if action had not been taken. I think it was appropriate that we took people off work in Area Plans temporarily to ensure that we got decisions made more quickly. The increase in the number of planning applications has been very dramatic and I think what people want for planning applications is fast and quick decisions. The reallocation of staff has been to address that. I would not accept there is a crisis. I would accept that the Planning Service is under enormous pressure and I think largely the pressure is to get quick decisions for people, but we are recruiting additional staff. Obviously when you first recruit additional staff they have not got the expertise which is required, but in recruiting additional staff, having a temporary shift of staff responsibilities, I think we are addressing that to ensure we do not have a crisis. Q364 Chairman: Minister, one of our concerns, not just in respect of this inquiry but in a previous inquiry which looked at social housing, was that quite a lot of the frustration felt by those that work within the planning area is that the Department is slow in issuing planning guidance, I think, in respect of our inquiry into social housing. One of the frustrations felt by many of those that have given evidence is that the Department is very slow at issuing planning guidance. In social housing we refer to PPS12 and a two- or three-year delay in that guidance. I think, in respect of waste management, we have PPS11, which is due. When you have moved people round from one part of the Planning Service to deal with applications, the people you move around to deal with those applications probably will be the people who should be preparing and issuing the guidance. Is there not a risk that, in trying to shore up one part of the Department, you add to the frustrations and delays in respect of the Department's own work? Angela Smith: The staff that have been moved have come off work in the Area Plans. As far as I am aware, we have not moved staff off PPS11, which is the particular one we are talking about at present. We do need to ensure that while the new staff are being trained we have a temporary measure in place, so it is a temporary process but it does not address that particular PPS that you are interested in, but it does have an impact on the Area Plans. Q365 Chairman: Just for clarity, before I move on to Mr Bailey, I think what we were gleaning from the questions that were raised by several Members, because there is some confusion, is whether or not it is acceptable for the Department to be seen to limit landfill applications at a time when there are so few applications coming forward for alternatives. Also, those that want to put forward landfill applications feel as if they have to put them on such a large scale in order to be accepted under the current procedures, and yet when there are no alternatives coming forward, or alternatives are slow to come forward, we could find ourselves in a situation where waste, as well as being shipped to Scotland, is not able to be dealt with within Ireland, within the island of Ireland and Northern Ireland? Angela Smith: I think, working within the strategy, we are well aware of the need to develop alternatives. That is not something we are blind to as a Department at all, but also we have to ensure adequate landfill in the interim period. In terms of the recycling and reduction programme, we are pushing hard on that, but there may also have to be other strategic considerations made if that is to be successful. Q366 Mr Bailey: I want to cover the financing of the strategy. I suppose there are three broad issues. First, there seems to be confusion about the level of funding that will be required over the next five or ten years in total. Then, within that, I think there is also confusion over how much of this funding will actually come from the capital pot or from PFI/PPP or joint ventures. Lastly, what is the role of the local authorities, given the fact that 50 per cent of local authorities' budgets at the moment are devoted to waste management? Is there an expectation from the Government that the level of rates will have to rise to deal with, in effect, their obligations under the strategy? Angela Smith: I always like to assist Members if they are confused, Mr Chairman. I will do my best. I think the guidelines I would use are those from the Strategic Investment Board, and the figure they have given us for the infrastructure bid over the next three years is £268 million, and that is the figure on which we would operate. How that will be allocated, as to capital or PFI/PPP, that is not something we can give you a decision on today, that is something we need to address, we need to work on, fairly quickly, in terms of having the right structure and infrastructure in place. In terms of the role of local authorities, I think it is worth bearing in mind that we are talking about 50 per cent of local authority funding is on rates. Local authorities in Northern Ireland are considerably smaller than those in England. They do not have the same functions, as you will be aware, so 50 per cent is not the same as 50 per cent in England or in Wales. From my discussions with local councillors, they are very much aware of this issue, they are very focused on the issue of waste. Currently, we are on £10 million a year, which is going through to 2006, for local councils, so there is funding on stream that we are committed to, but, of course, decisions have to be taken in light of the report from the SIB of how we fund it and how we progress with the infrastructural issues. I would be reluctant at this stage to look at increasing the rates, because we have to address the funding issue but if you look at what is happening in Northern Ireland, with the Review of Public Administration particularly and the instruction for water rates, there are considerable pressures being placed on householders. I am not sure that is the road that we would consider going down at this stage but we will have to look at the options of how to fund. Q367 Mr Bailey: Can we talk about the Strategic Investment Board. First of all, how long do you think it will take to procure the facilities which you have outlined will cost £268 million? Do you think perhaps local authorities should be given powers to borrow to enable them to procure that infrastructure? Angela Smith: I am not convinced at this stage that local authorities would want that power, because I think we need to look at a more strategic Northern Ireland solution, not just in terms of local authorities, and the local authorities I have spoken to feel it is a big responsibility for one local authority. The Review of Public Administration is going to be looking at the structure of local government; that will have an impact there as well. In terms of timescales, I think, until we have had an opportunity to assess in some detail the SIB report, it is a little bit difficult to say, but I will come back to you on that. Q368 Mr Bailey: How do you envisage the infrastructure for commercial and industrial wastes will be funded in future? Is it not the case that much of the non-landfill infrastructure is beyond the capacity of business to finance in its own right? Angela Smith: That I think is where the consideration of the SIB report becomes absolutely crucial, and, again, sorry to be unhelpful but until we have had an opportunity to consider in further detail the SIB report it is a bit hasty to rush to judgment at this stage. As I say, I will come back to the Committee on that one. Q369 Chairman: Minister, can I touch on the question of waste reduction, rather than waste management. Officials have suggested that there needs to be more focus on waste reduction. What consideration has been given to the introduction of schemes such as variable charging of households, taxes on plastic bags, because obviously, particularly that latter one, taxes on plastic bags, is something which has been introduced south of the border? Has there been any consideration of those measures? Angela Smith: We have considered them and I think they are still open for consideration on those kinds of issues. The plastic bag levy has been very successful in the Republic of Ireland, but possibly for different reasons in terms of the waste stream. If you look at the waste stream, it is 0.2 per cent of municipal solid waste, and in terms of litter and also creating public awareness about waste, I think it is quite important, it has been successful. What we have been looking at is, in terms of that area, working with some of the larger supermarkets, and I was very grateful to Sainsbury's for their very large bag they gave me, the 'bag for life' I think they were calling it at the time, and therefore launched a campaign for them on that issue. There is a counter-argument about driving producers towards biodegradable bags, that it increases the problems of biodegradable waste diversion, so we need to look at all the implications, but that is something which will always be under active consideration. Also, in terms of the variable charging you mentioned, in terms of kerbside schemes, Belfast Council have been very good at looking at ways of changing behaviour on that. I think the role of looking to incentives and finding ways to incentivise those who wish to recycle and reduce perhaps will be preferable than charging, and that is again something I would want to consider. It would need legislation, of course. Q370 Chairman: We are taking the stick or carrot issue forward, in terms of trying to give incentive. One of the sticks, one of the disincentives, is plans to increase the landfill tax by £3 per tonne per annum, each and every annum. It is one of the reasons why local authorities have suggested to us that rates may have to increase, if the landfill tax is to be increased at such a level year on year, up to, we are told, a level of £35 a tonne. Has any thought been given as to whether or not that will have an effect on waste reduction in local authorities' responses to waste reduction? It certainly focuses the mind if you know that your expenditure is going to increase so sharply and the only way you can make up that shortfall is to increase the rates. Angela Smith: You are absolutely right, it does focus the mind. We have looked at things like tax breaks, but of course that is a matter outside devolved administration, that is a matter for the Treasury, but that is something which could be considered in that regard. One of the things we looked at also was grant aid for the NGOs, and I know you have had evidence from Advice and Health on the work they are doing, and obviously they have very strong support from us. I think there is more we can do, working with them to realise their potential in this regard as well. Q371 Mr Luke: We have taken evidence and heard of the 'Wake up to Waste' campaign and we are pleased that has raised the profile of waste issues in Northern Ireland. Would you not agree, however, that, for households, changes in behaviour presumes the availability of options to do so? Do you think that local authorities have been sufficiently proactive in seeking to enhance their recycling and composting systems? Angela Smith: I think there are mixed results from that, but certainly, if you look at some of the work done by Belfast City Council which we have financed on technology, on having microchipped bins, in terms of waste disposal, yes, I think there is an awful lot done which is very good. Northern Ireland was starting from a very low base and we have had to play catch‑up. I was checking the figures. The targets we have set ourselves for household waste are 25 per cent by 2005 and 40 per cent by 2010. Back in 2000 it was at only six per cent. That has risen, to 121/2 per cent last year and we expect to see an increase this year. There has been quite a move towards increasing recycling and I think the publicity campaigns and awareness campaigns which we have run have helped towards that and I have visited some of the facilities. One of the things which encouraged me, one of the Bryson House facilities I visited, was the involvement of youngsters, some schools there were being shown round, so they create an awareness at a very young age of how easy it is to recycle but also about the end products, of the purpose of it. There is more that can be done but I think a good start has been made and it does help us to try to catch up. Mr Luke: The mention of Bryson House takes me on to my next question. As a Committee, we also visited and took part in a kerbside collection scheme in East Belfast and I think the Committee were very impressed. Chairman: Some of us more vigorously than others. Q372 Mr Luke: That is right. Leadership has its problems. Obviously, the Household Waste Recycling Act requires all local authorities to have doorstep collection schemes in place. Under the provisions of the Act, all local authorities will be required, from 2010, to collect two or more materials separately for recycling and/or composting. Obviously, we have heard of the progress being made by Bryson House in Belfast but also across local authority schemes in Northern Ireland. Are you considering extending the Household Waste Recycling Act to Northern Ireland and do you think that would push this on quicker? What impact do you think this would have? Angela Smith: I would like to see as wide an application as possible. I think the greater awareness, the greater degree of collection, will have a big impact. I think we have to be careful not to think that every single item can be recycled, not everything can be recycled, but I think some of the work which is ongoing, particularly in looking to find markets for recycled material, does lead to seeing far more commitment on this issue and a better take‑up. Q373 Mr Beggs: Will not the penalties which may be imposed on local authorities for failing to reach targets be a sufficient incentive, rather than have what is perceived to be further stealth taxing by increasing landfill tax? Angela Smith: The landfill tax escalator is something in legislation now and that will go ahead. I think there is a stick and carrot approach. We want to work with local authorities, we are making money available to local authorities and my discussions with local councils have been about how positive they have been in wanting to increase the amount they recycle. I am not aware of a problem of local councils not wanting to engage in this at all. Mr Beggs: Are not the penalties which they may incur if they fail to reach targets a sufficient incentive? Q374 Chairman: That is not a stick or carrot, is it, probably it is both, I should imagine? Angela Smith: A decision is made about how far we want to take this. I think it is extremely important that actually we reduce the amount of waste going to landfill and local authorities themselves have agreed plans for land diversion. From the local authority plans that we have seen, there is no indication that any of them will face any fines at all. That comes back to the point I am making, that the response from local authorities has been extremely positive. We have no indication from current levels that any of them will face fines. Q375 Chairman: Can I say that one of the frustrations of the Committee is often to find that legislation which is introduced in England and Wales is not usually extended quickly enough in Northern Ireland. Whilst accepting that we would all like to be in the position where the Assembly is keeping more of a close eye on and taking more of a role in such matters, can I ask you, if you are not able to provide the answer today, to do so in writing, to take up a point which was made by Mr Luke, as to whether or not the 2003 Household Waste Recycling Act, which makes it a requirement for local authorities to collect two items by 2010 by kerbside collection, will be extended to Northern Ireland? That in itself, I think, will focus minds towards recycling as a way of reducing landfill. Angela Smith: Certainly I will come back to you on that. Local authorities have responded very positively. I think there may be some issue about putting extra functions on local authorities during the process of the Review of Public Administration, and so it may be something to be looked at in that context. Certainly we will consider it and come back to you. Q376 Mr Luke: Moving from recycling to illegal dumping, we have had evidence which highlighted the major problem of the illegal dumping of waste from outside Northern Ireland. We were encouraged to hear from officials that this matter is being taken seriously and that measures are being taken, in collaboration with organisations in the Republic of Ireland, to address this. In earlier evidence, officials also indicated that the Department has bid for an additional £2.5 million to support additional staff and surveillance. How confident are you, Minister, of getting this additional funding and are you satisfied that this level of resources will be adequate to contain the problem, given that the Republic of Ireland are spending around €9 million (some £6 million) on this? Angela Smith: As you are probably aware, I have met on two occasions with the previous Minister for the Environment in the Republic and I am seeing the new Minister in the next couple of weeks again, and this is the major item on the agenda to discuss. One of the things I think we need to provide to our Finance Department is how effective the new money from the Republic has been and how we can deal with that as well. I think we have been extremely proactive on this issue. It is a very serious matter. We have made a considerable play of the prosecution the Department is taking and I do not think that really they have been given the credit they deserve for the work which is ongoing and getting prosecutions together. I noticed in the evidence from Friends of the Earth the comment was taken up that the Department is not an emergency service, that somehow we were not doing anything about illegal dumping. We are not an emergency service, but in terms of gaining information and trying to stop illegal dumping the work of the enforcement team has been really very impressive, and I put that on record and pay tribute to them. In terms of funding, yes, we are putting in additional money, for staff, systems and equipment, to back up the work which is being undertaken at present. Probably it is not for me to say how confident I am, you might want to get one of my colleagues along and put the same point to him, but can I say that, whatever the outcome of the financial side, we will continue to pursue this with the utmost vigour. There is a conference at the moment ongoing in Portlaoise on enforcement between the two agencies, the work between the police, North and South, the enforcement agencies and departments. I think we have seen a degree of co‑operation which really has been second to none. We may well need to put new legislation in place to deal with this. I am not convinced that the existing legislation is addressing the problem adequately, and I have said that if we fail to get the results that we need through existing legislation then we will need to take new legislation. Q377 Mr Luke: That brings us on to the next question I was going to ask you. In some of the evidence we have had, people have identified that there might be a need for legislation to tackle the problems that you are facing, in order to enforce this illegal dumping across the border. One example which was raised with us was new powers to seize lorries. What assessment has been made of the changes that are needed, and have you any proposals to bring forward revised legislation and how quickly could that be done? Angela Smith: The issue of how quickly it could be done really would depend on whether legislation had to go through Order in Council in Westminster or be done by a devolved administration, so it is pretty difficult to answer that one. In terms of the assessment, one of the things I was looking to do was, when we have the enforcement action being taken, to see what the response of the courts was. We did not want to be taking new legislation if the existing powers we had when they got to court were adequate. I have been a little disappointed in recent prosecutions we have had, and I am looking for a case where they were on appeal. In October 2003, Armagh Magistrates fined a local company £8,000 for polluting discharge to a waterway: appeal against the fine on the basis that the money had not been spent on upgrading the premises. They are talking additional discharge with no fine. I find that extremely disappointing. More recent cases: September 2004, there was a £5,000 fine under Duty of Care Regulations for disposal of waste on an unlicensed site in a manner likely to cause harm to the environment. In March 2004, there was a £9,500 fine for the burying of waste on an illegal landfill site. There are, I think, good examples of legislation working. I think one of the issues we have to deal with now is we need to look at the seizure of vehicles and how we operate with that, because if we can take away the vehicles from those who are bringing in the illegal waste that will have a big input, and that is something we are actively progressing and looking at, at present. Q378 Mr McGrady: Minister, I would like to return to the area of questions regarding market development, and during the course of this inquiry we have had very varied views expressed to us as to the importance of market development for recyclables. What is the Department's policy in respect of the provision of markets, as long as the material is collected or of an adequate quality? Secondly, do you see a viable economic market being created for recycling within Northern Ireland, or indeed within the island of Ireland, or what is the departmental sort of analysis of where we are going with this, in terms of future policy? Angela Smith: It is difficult for Northern Ireland. We are relatively small and the geographic location, the fact that we have a geographic separation from the rest of the UK does make looking for markets and market development more difficult. Having said that, I think we have greatly appreciated our involvement with WRAP, the Waste Resources Action Programme, and they have helped us access research and undertake work, and funding and investment schemes have reached in excess of £40 million by working with WRAP, so if we fail to take advantage of that, which I think has greatly assisted us. I think the potential there is that they can do a lot of work with Northern Ireland to help develop regional markets, which would be of enormous benefit. There have also been the individual funds, which you will be aware of, the Waste Management Industry Fund, which we have put a million pounds into, again helping to develop markets. That probably has not been as successful as we would have liked. I think WRAP has been more successful and we see greater potential with WRAP. I think the focus for us has to be on levering in funds to help with market development. I do not know if, when you were over, you visited it, but there is a glass facility, Crystalline Glass. Q379 Chairman: No, we did not. Angela Smith: They are taking waste glass, they are collecting that without it being sorted and producing road markings with it. That again is a local market being produced and examples like that I think are a lesson to us. There is a lot of work to be done. I would recommend WRAP, and the work we have done with them I think has been the most successful of routes. Q380 Mr McGrady: Would you subscribe to the argument made by many that the lack of market development is a major obstacle to the expansion of the recycling process? Angela Smith: It is difficult, I accept that, but I am not sure that there is a lack of market development. The work is ongoing on that, but it is difficult in Northern Ireland. Market development across the whole of the UK will be the key to ensuring that we find markets for recyclables, and the more markets we can find the better our ability will be to recycle. In that sense, yes, I would agree, but I think we are making some progress. Q381 Mr McGrady: It has been pointed out to us, I think, Minister, that for certain materials, such as aggregates and composts, a combination of one product specification and the green procurement policy pursued vigorously should be sufficient to ensure an adequate market demand for the resultant quality materials? Angela Smith: I think it will improve market demand. Whether it would be entirely adequate I think would be difficult to judge. Certainly it would improve, and that is one of the reasons why I think we have to have this review of our monitoring of green procurement within Government at the end of perhaps interim measures, and by September next year see if there is more we can do, there is more we need to do. That certainly was in our mind when we were looking at green procurement within Government. Also, of course, the Republic of Ireland has similar problems, in terms of small markets, and there is work ongoing into operation with the Republic as well, which I think will assist us. It is a challenge. As I say, there are challenges and opportunities in life, and this presents both. Q382 Mr Pound: I am sorry, Minister, I am still musing over the prospect of using broken glass as a road marker. Angela Smith: You are welcome to come and see. Q383 Mr Pound: I have never refused an invitation yet. Minister, can I just say that many of the people I have spoken to in this area do seem to be confused about the implementation of the strategy. There does seem to be widespread support for the strategy, particularly if we think we were told that a key component of this was the establishment of three Area Waste Management Plans. Now we are told that there will be an integration into one Regional Plan. Earlier on, you talked about the BPEO assessments being undertaken locally and now we are talking about an overall BPEO assessment framework. While you have got this move towards centralisation, on the one hand, you are also, quite rightly, as you are this afternoon, talking about the significance of local planning-making and local decision-making and local consultation. There does seem to be a difficulty in expressing the clarity of the implementation of the strategy. I wonder if you could give us perhaps a brief idiot's guide, for my benefit, if not for anybody else's, to who does what, when, where and in what order? Angela Smith: That would be one probably in some detail I can write to the honourable gentleman about. I will write with more detail, but in general terms do not underestimate at all how important it was and how difficult it was, in some ways, to get the three strategies, and 26 local authorities working together to achieve that was a major achievement and I commend them for that. In terms of some of the bigger strategic issues, it is quite clear that we are going to need an overarching Northern Ireland Plan, and one plan would certainly be preferable. I think we will need to look, and again the Review of Public Administration will play a role in this, at what the roles of local authorities will be. I suspect, at the end of the day, we will need to see one plan, in terms of the strategic development, but there will be a role perhaps for local councils to undertake, maybe in terms of recycling, in the collection of waste, but I am not sure we are at the stage yet to get one plan, much as we would like one. Q384 Chairman: It is a very difficult area, is it not, because we have gone from 26 to three? Some people have said one plan but others have said that perhaps there needs to be an island of Ireland plan? Angela Smith: There has to be co‑operation, certainly, and that is a major political issue which neither you nor I are able to resolve at this meeting today. The co‑operation between North and South I think is very good. I have visited a facility for glass and recyclables in Dundalk, there is the all-Ireland fridge contract in terms of disposal of fridges, so there is a lot of work that we can co‑operate on, and it is important that we do. The challenge in producing three plans for Northern Ireland was great and that was achieved, so I have no doubt that Northern Ireland can meet the challenges of having a strategic overview of one plan at the appropriate time. Q385 Mr Pound: I must say, Chairman, I thought that Tony Hawks's book, 'Round Ireland with a Fridge' was, in fact, a chapter in your Regional Strategic Plan, until I realised otherwise. If you follow through the logic of what you are saying, you are actually talking about not just an island of Ireland strategy and not just a GB strategy but a North European strategy, and I understand the dynamic tension between that need for the overarching strategy and the local consultation. I am just wondering whether the Review of Public Administration is a factor here. Has this been a consideration in the way in which you seem to be recalibrating the national framework strategy implementation? Angela Smith: I think it is fair to say that the Review of Public Administration has not been waste management led. We have still got the issue about having one plan, but I think it does give us an opportunity. When I have been meeting with councillors and meeting with NILGA and discussing what the functions of local councils are going to be and the numbers of local councils, it seems to me they are very alive to the issues of waste management and waste disposal. I had a meeting with councillors last week on something completely unrelated and yet they raised the issue, "Well, we've got to deal with waste management." I think it provides an opportunity in the Review of Public Administration to address those kinds of issues, and councils will do so. The councils together are forming the Waste Management Group, as you know, the three, and the fact that they can do that does show a willingness to work together and co‑operate together in a way perhaps which would not have been anticipated previously, so I am optimistic. There is one other thing which perhaps I should mention. We are looking at a Northern Ireland paper-mill to see if that is an opportunity in terms of recycling as well. Co‑operation is important. Whether the structures will be one body across Northern Ireland is a different matter, but the co‑operation between the three plans will be absolutely crucially essential. Q386 Mr Beggs: Minister, would you accept the criticism that to date the main focus has been on municipal waste with minimal attention to other waste streams such as commercial or construction waste? How do you think the strategy needs to develop to tackle other waste streams and what assurance can you give us that the revised strategy will redress the imbalance? Angela Smith: There has been an emphasis on domestic but I do not think it has been to the exclusion of looking at other waste streams. Certainly the Duty of Care road shows that I mentioned earlier on and the response we had, we contacted directly over 3,000 companies and Northern Ireland perhaps has the proliferation more so than England of small and medium-size enterprises, and the response we had from those in engaging with us on the Duty of Care Regulations was impressive. I understand the point you make saying there is criticism, but that perhaps would imply that we had not done anything, which I think would be unfair criticism. Also NetRegs, I do not know if Members are aware of the NetRegs initiative, which is web-based, hence the Net, in terms of environmental regulation. That is something which small and medium-size businesses can access very easily to get information and advice. I launched that with the Federation of Small Businesses just a few months ago and they were very impressed with that and the take‑up has been excellent. The response from both of those shows that we are engaging with businesses. Some work on agricultural waste is ongoing, which again is important, and the Draft Agricultural Waste Regulations are being prepared. Also, I think, new technologies in farming and business do create new opportunities and challenges for us. Intensive farming brings with it challenges in terms of building, and we have been working with the construction industry in terms of using and disposing of material on site as well. It would be unfair to say that no work has been ongoing but it would be fair to say there has been a concentration on domestic. Q387 Reverend Smyth: Several respondents have been pressing in their evidence to us that there ought to be an environment agency. I am aware that actually this was proposed many years ago and I have never yet discovered why it has never been implemented. I wonder whether you, as Minister, would have any concern at the moment, because even those who are advocating it from the Waste Management Advisory Board report, they strongly recommend such? What is the possibility of it being set up? Angela Smith: I met with the coalition pressing for this very recently, in the last few weeks, and Members will be aware of the McQuory (?) Report which looked at this issue. I thought his report was particularly interesting. If I recall correctly, I think he gave four options, of having an independent, I think you were talking about an independent, environment protection agency, and with these four options he had merits for all four and also disbenefits for all four. He did not really conclude, I think, in the text, which would be preferable, though he had a preferred option. I think there should be discussion. That is the way to proceed. I have to be mindful of the political situation and, I am currently a Direct Rule Minister, whether that is a matter that a devolved administration should properly consider. I am reluctant to take action which would tie the hands of a devolved administration or devolved minister. One of the things they were asking for was a review of the current processes and procedures. They have met with my officials to discuss how that could best be progressed and if it is appropriate. I have discussed that with ministerial colleagues. I think I can say, from my point of view, that I am actually quite sympathetic to the idea of an independent environment protection agency. I think it needs some further debate and thought for progressing on that way. It seems to me though that the essential question is not one of what the politics of it are or the perception but what delivers the best outcomes, how to deliver the best outcomes in terms of environmental protection for Northern Ireland, and that should be the driving force for any of the discussions on this. I am quite attracted to having a discussion and review but whether that is appropriate in the current political context I need to discuss with colleagues, so I have not reached a conclusion on that yet. Certainly I think the way that the debate has been opened by the McQuory Report is excellent. Q388 Reverend Smyth: In the recent consultation, 75 per cent of those who responded were very much positively for it, and when we talk about consulting people sometimes we might be wise to heed them and work accordingly. Would you agree that at times the departments have been the greatest polluters of all? This is one reason why Strangford and all the people have been asking for an agency that can oversee departments as well. Angela Smith: I understand the point my honourable friend is making and, if we look at the issues of the departments being polluters, I think the issue raised there would be one of Crown immunity, and that has been an issue around the Water Service. Under the new arrangements Crown immunity will be lost anyway, so departments will be subject to the same legislation as anybody else. I do think there is a proper discussion to be had on this in Northern Ireland. The report referred to, Mr Smyth, is, in fact, the one I have mentioned, the McQuory Report and the consultation on the McQuory Report. If you look at those who responded to it, it was a very wide consultation. The Department would be unable to enact legislation on the basis of an outside consultation, you will understand, under Section 75 and other legislation. We would have to initiate our own consultation process on that. I think, at the moment, the stumbling block I have is whether it would be appropriate for a Direct Rule Minister or whether that should be undertaken by a devolved administration, whether it was appropriate that I would make, as Minister, lasting changes in the structure of Government or whether that should be a matter dealt with by the local administration. I think certainly the debate has been started in a way that I support. Q389 Reverend Smyth: If it so happens that we are not going to have such a structure in the reasonably near future, are we going to keep it to eternity before we have the waste and environment protected? Angela Smith: I do not share your pessimism on this. Q390 Reverend Smyth: I am just being realistic. Angela Smith: I do not agree with your pessimism on that. I am not saying no, I am saying that is a consideration which ministers have to make at the present time on whether or not to proceed with this. I quite like the idea they have suggested of having a review to look at the issues and how it could be done, but whether that would tie the hands of an incoming devolved minister is something I have got to consider. Chairman: That is fair comment. Q391 Mr McGrady: Just a supplementary to Mr Smyth's question to you, Minister. You are aware that Northern Ireland is the only part of Britain and Ireland which has not got an independent agency dealing with protection of the environment, and surely it is self-evident that a poacher cannot be game-keeper and that is what the Department has been. You have indicated that consultation has to be pursued to its bitter end, well, that is now two decades old, at least. There is not a political party in Northern Ireland that does not subscribe to the fact that there should be an independent environment protection agency, and if that is the case it is irrelevant whether there is a devolved administration or not? Angela Smith: If I can say, my reluctance stems a little bit from when the devolved administration was in place it chose not to progress this, and even though all political parties are currently signed up to it, if that is the instruction of this Committee that you would love me to go back and look at it, from the political parties from Northern Ireland, I would be very happy to. To repeat the point I made, I am mindful of the political considerations on this at present. I am attracted to a review to look at it. My mind is not set against it in any way at all. It is merely a political consideration as to whether I would be tying the hands of a devolved minister. Q392 Chairman: Thank you for that. I think this Committee is very mindful of the role of the Assembly. One of our decisions very early on was to involve those political parties within Northern Ireland which participate in the Assembly to make sure that our deliberations are not simply those set in a current context but can be useful to the Assembly once, as we all hope, very soon, it is back in place. If ever there was an example of why we need an Assembly, why we need local governance for Northern Ireland, it is that, if you take an issue such as waste management, there are so many problems unique to Northern Ireland, which is not necessarily the case in other parts of the United Kingdom. We have differential in landfill gate fees between Northern Ireland and the Republic somewhere of the order of £100 per tonne, I am told, in terms of those differentials. You have got households on one side of the border subject to variable charging, whereas, of course, on the other they are not. Would it be fair to say that in the absence of a devolved Assembly, from a UK Government point of view, we are not taking seriously the uniqueness of the problem in Northern Ireland? Is not there the need for more flexibility to be given to yourself, as Minister, to resolve some of the unique difficulties that Northern Ireland faces? Can I expand that question just slightly and say that if there were three cross-departmental issues that you could have in your wish list to help resolve some of those unique difficulties, what would they be? Angela Smith: It is so tempting. I must be very careful here. Offering ministers flexibility, I think, is always a pretty dangerous road to go down. In terms of flexibility and, having Mr Smyth's question, perhaps speaking a little bit off the top of my head, I think the things I would like to do as a matter of urgency would be fairly swift action on illegal dumping, cross-border movements of waste. Certainly looking at the specific circumstances, and, you are quite right, a land border between the North and the South does give us opportunities and challenges and we are able to co‑operate with another country in a way which does not happen in other parts of the UK. I am thinking about the all-Ireland fridge contract, some of the wastes, the glass disposal/recycling place I visited as well. There are opportunities and perhaps we do have an opportunity to pursue those with some vigour. Q393 Chairman: Thank you very much. I think there were three in there. That has been very helpful. Minister, can I thank you for being so generous to us in respect of your answers and spending time with us. We do hope to publish our report speedily and we look forward very much to the Government's response to it. Waste management within Northern Ireland will continue to be a challenge for this Government and for the Assembly, once it is back up and running, and I do hope that not only will we beat the targets but we will do so in a way that assists and helps local authorities to accept their new responsibilities, rather than seeming just to punish them, which can be a little too heavy-handed on the stick when the carrot is not in sight yet. I thank you on behalf of the Committee for attending this afternoon. Angela Smith: Can I thank you as well, Mr Chairman, for giving us the opportunity to put some things on record as to how we are dealing with these issues in Northern Ireland. You started off, I think, in your questions asking about European compliance and going beyond that, and also leadership. I think the 'Wake up to Waste' campaign that I have mentioned does both of those and does highlight a determination from the Department to action these issues. I think it shows that really what we do need to see is a change in behaviour, that is corporate behaviour and individual, and that goes right to the heart of the issue, and I mentioned a number of issues, of a cultural change being needed and I think that is important. The other thing I think I do need to flag up is that the role of leadership does involve sometimes taking unpopular decisions, and that says I think that we are prepared to take the unpopular decisions if that is in the best interests of Northern Ireland. Perhaps it is not always immediately apparent that is what we are doing. I think that gives an indication of how seriously we take these issues and I am grateful to you for your interest and support on this issue. Chairman: Thank you very much. |