Examination of Witnesses (Questions 280-297)
MR GRAHAM
GARBUTT AND
MR STEVE
GREGORY
5 MAY 2004
Q280 Christine Russell: You have just
emphasised that you are a very new organisation?
Mr Garbutt: Indeed.
Q281 Christine Russell: Can I ask you
how well developed your understanding is of how effective the
performance of housing associations, local authorities who are
housing providers are in your region?
Mr Garbutt: Yes. Take local authorities,
for example. The process of corporate performance assessment that
local authorities are going through, or have gone through, and
are going through refreshers, does focus upon that; and, as you
know, there is an issue here about the relationship between the
Audit Commission and the Housing Corporation both nationally and
regionally. I think we have quite a good fix now on where the
problems are and where the greatest challenges are, for example
in meeting the Decent Homes targets, and that is something that
we are quite well focused on at the moment. I think as a Regional
Housing Board my own presumption would be that as a Board our
fix on individual associations may be less good, although I think
you would need to ask the Housing Corporation regional people
about their own direct fix on that. We talked to them about it.
We do not see it as wholly within our remit at the moment to look
as a housing board at the performance of individual associations,
but we have discussed with their Head of Regulation the process
they go through, but we see that as something they bring to the
table as a completed process.
Q282 Christine Russell: Have you looked,
for instance, at how effective the associations are at delivering
new developments, actually spending the money?
Mr Garbutt: As a Board we have
not actually done that yet. It is something we have talked to
the Corporation about doing for the future; we have not done it
yet.
Mr Gregory: We have relied in
this first year on the Corporation's processes for delivering
that part of the regional housing pot. So they have used their
processes and their analysis of associations' performance in this
first year. We did have a presentation from the Regulator last
week, where we began to highlight some of these issues that we
might need to consider. I think, if you recall, so much of this
allocation, the two-year period that we are working through at
the moment, is allocated by national formula. It is as we get
into the next round, where we are allocating it by regional strategy,
that I think the real regional issue about delivery will take
place, the debate will take place, and we have just started to
get into that now.
Q283 Christine Russell: Would you like
to elaborate a little further on a comment that you make in your
submission, which is an interesting one: because you are talking
about wider perceptions of your role and the need for more emphasis.
You say, "More emphasis on communication is probably required,
especially in explaining the basis of regional decisions locally"?
Mr Garbutt: Yes, the nub of the
point there is that it is a new process, and frankly we thought
we did rather well in getting it up and running and completing
the strategy with full agreement, getting that submitted to ministers
and getting it agreed without amendment in the time available
(and I think that partly answers some of the questions that were
made earlier), but, inevitably, in the process, despite what we
have both said about going around the region and talking about
what we have been doing, I do not think that the understanding
is embedded in all areas where it needs to be, nor have we fully
explained the way in which people can influence it.
Q284 Christine Russell: What areas do
you need to concentrate a little more on getting your message
through?
Mr Gregory: One of the things
that we have really tried to emphasise in producing the strategy
is that it is a strategy for the whole region and the region stands
or falls on the success of rolling out the housing strategy. The
region is very heavily dominated by the Birmingham conurbation
and the effects of the conurbation roll-out into the Shire areas.
The Regional Planning Guidance that we have worked very, very
hard on is based on an urban renaissance policy of reversing a
policy that we have had for 15 or more years of decentralising
the conurbation out into the rural hinterland. Having had that
policy for 50 years, we have got now communities in the rural
hinterland who have growing families who want to remain within
the area and are generating more demand. Our policy now is to
encourage migration back to the conurbation, which means that
we have to create a conurbation where people aspire to live, a
policy that we are just beginning to break into.
Q285 Christine Russell: You said at the
beginning that the West Midlands contains areas of very high demand
and very low demand, what you have just said seems to indicate
that you are going to, perhaps pressurise is too strong a word,
but you are going to hope to persuade families who made the exodus
from Central Birmingham 50 years ago to move back in. In reality
that is not going to happen. How are you going to provide affordable
housing for those families to remain in their market towns or
villages?
Mr Gregory: Just finishing off
that last point, because I did ramble, this is the policy that
needs to be communicated, that it is a whole region policy; and
the rural area needs and the urban areas needs are different sides
of the same coin, but they do tend to split and get themselves
presented as two different policies. We need to do a lot of work
on persuading people that the regional planning guidance and the
urban renaissance policy is the right policy for the region, and
that is a major communication issue.
Q286 Chris Mole: Kate Barker is keen
to see some of the obstacles of housing developments moved out
of the way. You have talked about how the Regional Housing Strategy
and the Regional Spatial Strategy were developed in parallel.
Do you think that mitigates the need for any kind of formal merger
or joining together of the RHB and the regional planning bodies?
Mr Garbutt: I think it needs very
careful attention and obviously it is something which will be
debated over the summer. For me, as I indicated earlier, I think
there are important issues about lines of accountability and the
way in which the Barker proposals would be implemented within
the current structure of Regional Assemblies and Regional Housing
Boards I think is something which potentially could lead to some
confusion in terms of political accountability. It is important
that that does not happen, and I am not quite sure how those possible
proposals could be implemented without creating confusion. Perhaps
it can be done; I do not see a solution at the moment.
Q287 Chris Mole: Is there a risk of the
tail wagging the dog?
Mr Garbutt: Could you explain
further?
Q288 Chris Mole: In the sense of if the
Regional Housing Policy is developed in isolation from the planning
strategy, you could end up effectively driving the Spatial Strategy
through what the housing requirements are?
Mr Garbutt: Again I cannot speak
for other regions, but I think in the West Midlands things are
very closely aligned, both the Regional Planning Guidance and
the Regional Housing Strategy and the Regional Economic Strategy
are similar documents very closely aligned. That has been achieved.
Whether that is achieved everywhere, whether that has potential
future problems, is hard to comment on. The theoretical principle
of aligning planning and housing clearly is a strong one, but,
as I have said, to bring them together to an executive which is
defined by Barker as independent from the political process is
something which does raise questions about accountability. Who
takes responsibility for decisions which are made on the basis
of the Regional Executive's advice? Is the accountability aligned
to ministers at a national level or is it to some so far not directly
elected assembly, or is it to local authorities? That, I think,
needs to be thought through very carefully.
Q289 Mr O'Brien: Should there be a National
Housing Strategy?
Mr Garbutt: I think there is a
need for a National dimension; whether you call it National Housing
Strategy, I think, is a good question. I think that the relationship
between the Housing Corporation and ODPM does need to be manifest
in some statement of national strategy.
Q290 Mr O'Brien: Should it be drawn up
on the Government's national strategy or based on a series of
regional strategies?
Mr Garbutt: Yes, but again it
would be a two-way process.
Q291 Mr O'Brien: Should it be the Government's
policy that should be highlighted, or should it be highlighted
from a number of regional policies, National Housing Strategy?
Mr Gregory: In my view it is a
national framework that is then interpreted at a regional level
to meet the needs of each region.
Q292 Mr O'Brien: Then it brings in other
regional dimensions, like transport, roads, and the need for corporation.
If that is so, does it mean that the Regional Strategy is working
in a vacuum at the present time, that there are other forces that
should be taking part, or you should be taking part in other dimensions,
other dialogues?
Mr Garbutt: Indeed we are. Part
of the Government office of course, works very closely, indeed
sponsors, the Regional Development Agency, so we are very closely
involved in the Regional Economic Strategy and similarly in the
Regional Planning Guidance, so that does take place. As we have
said in the submission, there is also a requirement a national
level for ODPM to bring a coherent view of transport policy, planning
policy, economic policy into its relationship with the Corporation.
Q293 Mr O'Brien: Is the ODPM doing anything
on the National Strategy basis?
Mr Garbutt: The vision that they
are developing for the relationship between ODPM and the
Corporation, I think, does address all the points that we make
in our paper.
Q294 Andrew Bennett: You are not exactly
putting the boot into the Government, though, are you? If you
take Telford as a new town, there is a major problem with some
of its old housing there, is there not, and yet you do not appear
to be making a great song and dance about the lack of use of those
resources and modernisation. If we take the centre of Birmingham,
or a lot of Birmingham, because Birmingham tenants voted against
stock transfer, there is a major question as to how that housing
is going to be brought up to the Decent Homes Standards, and then
you have got the problem with low demand in an area like Stoke.
Ought you not to be saying to the Government some of those Government
policies are wrong and they need to be changed?
Mr Garbutt: Well, I am a civil
servant and, as it were, I am the agent.
Q295 Andrew Bennett: Oh, I understand
your difficulty.
Mr Garbutt: It is not my job to
put the boot into the Government.
Q296 Andrew Bennett: Should not somebody
be speaking up for the West Midlands and saying, "Look, we
have got these crazy situations, we have got deterioration of
stock in building"?
Mr Gregory: Perhaps I can pick
that up, because the Regional Housing Partnership is not so constrained
by being a part of the Civil Service, but I think we would say
those things if we found they were a particular problem.
Q297 Andrew Bennett: So you are telling
me there is not a problem with the housing in Birmingham?
Mr Gregory: No, I am not saying
that at all, but what we need to do is evidence it and consider
the resource needs against the resources we know are coming in.
What we have done in the first year of developing the strategy
is to commission a series of studies to understand in detail the
dynamics of the housing market, particularly in Telford, which
is one of the areas that you raise, is one of those areas that
we have identified as a Board that needs to be further researched
along with the black country. That Black Country research is being
done at a sub-regional level picking up the needs of the rural
hinterland as well as the conurbation. We will find evidence of
the need for resources there. The first port of call for those
resources will be to the Regional Housing Board. The Regional
Housing Board will then have to prioritise. If that prioritisation
exercise leads to a need for more resources, then we raise it
as a need, but it will be a programming issue as much as an issue
of lobby.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed
for your evidence this morning.
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