Examination of Witnesses (Questions 31-39)
21 OCTOBER 2003
MR ANTHONY
MCGUIRK,
MR MIKE
HAGEN, MS
CAROLINE HINDLEY
AND MR
STEVE MCGUIRK
Q31 Chairman: Welcome to the Committee.
Can I ask you to introduce yourselves for the record, please?
Mr Hagen: My name is Michael Hagen
and I am the Deputy Chief Fire Officer at Merseyside Fire and
Rescue Service.
Mr A McGuirk: Good morning. I
am Anthony McGuirk. I am the Chief Fire Officer at Merseyside
Fire and Rescue Service.
Ms Hindley: Good morning. My name
is Caroline Hindley and I am the Business Development Manager
with Loop Customer Management.
Mr S McGuirk: Good morning. My
name is Steve McGuirk. I am Chief Fire Officer at Cheshire Fire
Service.
Q32 Chairman: Can I start off by
trying to get some idea about the sort of expenditure and standards?
It does seem that there is a huge difference between the expenditure
in Cheshire compared to the expenditure in Merseyside and also
a huge difference in what appear to be the results of that. Is
there a simple explanation for this? Is one much more efficient
than the other?
Mr A McGuirk: I think it is at
one level quite simple. We are a whole time Fire Service; we have
been for the past 25 years. I think that part of the issue is
that we start from different positions. When we started as a Fire
Service in 1974 those fire brigades were brought together; it
was an expensive combination of fire brigades and continues to
be expensive. In addition, we invest hugely in reducing fire death
and injury. We have been more successful in my view than any other
Fire Service in the world in that aspect. That costs money and
it is investment that the Fire Authority think is important.
Q33 Chairman: Your expenditure is
hugely greater than Greater Manchester and Greater Manchester
has had considerably more success in reducing the number of deaths.
So you are expensive and you are not really doing as well as a
neighbouring authority.
Mr A McGuirk: I think the focus
on fire death, whilst important, is quite a narrow focus. Our
view of fire safety is much more comprehensive. It is about fires,
fire injury, fire loss; in every aspect of fire we have reduced.
Q34 Chairman: I accept you have reduced,
but surely you have only reduced to the sort of level that most
of the other authorities have achieved anyway.
Mr A McGuirk: That is not what
the data shows in areas other than fire death, for example car
fires. We have already heard this morning about the dramatic increase
in car fires. The latest national information shows a 13% increase;
we have reduced by 2% which is a 15% difference.
Q35 Chairman: Those statistics seem
a bit dodgy to me. What is your percentage of car fires?
Mr A McGuirk: It is about 28%.
Q36 Chairman: How does that compare
with other places?
Mr A McGuirk: The latest statistics
show that we are about 2% below the increase of 13%. Nationally
the picture is an increase of about 13%; in Merseyside it is a
decrease of 2%. For the first time in Merseyside's history that
is a unique position where we are down-turning car fires.
Q37 Chairman: What about car fires
in Cheshire?
Mr S McGuirk: I think it is true
to say that car fires are going through the roof everywhere. I
think that is more to do with changing legislation, the cost of
disposal of cars and probably an awful lot to do with the culture
of a local authority and a community and where people choose to
steal cars, take them and burn them out. I think there is a lot
in there. In terms of the overall costs, we like to think we are
pretty cost effective and there are a number of reasons for that.
I think there is a reality that the resources and costs of a fire
service largely reflect the number of people it employs to ride
the big red shiny fire engines. Cities and metropolitan areas
have lots and lots of them because that was the basis of the old
standard of fire cover. Shire counties and more rural areas have
a much more dispersed fire risk and are therefore are able to
deploy resources differently. We heard from Peter Coombs earlier
that they already employ five different types of duty system in
Kent and you have that flexibility in a county that you do not
have in a metropolitan. The other thing that Cheshire benefits
from—and it is true to say that the White Paper follows
this theme—is being part of wider local government context
for a number of years. Cheshire was part of the country council
so management changes—bringing in functional management,
devolved management, cost centre management, delegation of budgets,
all those management activities that have formed part of local
government for many years—were able to be brought into the
Fire Service. I think the White Paper gives us those opportunities
for the wider Fire Service now to be part of mainstream modern
government.
Q38 Mr Streeter: In your submissions
to us you all broadly supported the broad thrust of the White
Paper. Can you just tell us briefly what are the key things in
it that will implement the changes that need to be made? How would
you prioritise it?
Mr S McGuirk: For me, first of
all, the legislative and regulatory framework that provides the
foundation to actually move forward at all. It is a brave new
world that opens up in the White Paper but actually none of it
is possible without some fundamental changes in legislation. We
are at the limit of stretching our current powers as it is. We
have already heard points about powers of well-being, the Fire
Service's Act, charges for specialist service calls; all the changes
for the future are predicated on legislative and regulatory change.
Without that framework in position we can really forget it.
Mr A McGuirk: I am in full support
of that. One of the difficulties in reducing our cost base has
been the ability to change. Section 19 is a perfect example. We
have had Section 19 applications to change cover to reduce costs
sat with Government for in the region of about two and a half
to three years and still no action on those changes. The repeal
of Section 19 is fundamental, as are some of the other changes
to regulation, for example we have already heard about disciplinary
regulations. I think the whole thrust to change this very rigid
framework is the key to the future.
Q39 Mr Streeter: We heard earlier
about the Integrated Personal Development System. Do you all support
this? Will it deliver the cultural change that we have been hearing
about?
Mr S McGuirk: It is a good thing
but I would talk about IPDS-plus. I think it is the only thing
that has survived intact from the previous life, as it were. Inevitably
its true design was for the Fire Service as it was. I think we
will need to adapt and grow the IPDS to provide the framework
for the future. Of itself it will not go anywhere near towards
changing culture; people need to change culture. Cultural changes
are a much, much bigger thing than a four letter acronym and a
simple management model. We need to do an awful lot more than
IPDS to change culture but it is certainly an important brick
in the wall.
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