Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-67)
21 OCTOBER 2003
MR ANTHONY
MCGUIRK,
MR MIKE
HAGEN, MS
CAROLINE HINDLEY
AND MR
STEVE MCGUIRK
Q60 Christine Russell: Do you have
any fears that money might be shifted away from authorities like
Merseyside, perhaps, to ones that are not as well funded?
Mr A McGuirk: I think it is inevitable.
It is something we have been dealing with for the past five years
anyway. We have had no real funding in support of what we have
been trying to achieve, so in a sense I think it is inevitable,
as long as there is a realistic floor to that funding. That is
a big issue. We are working on the principle that the floors and
ceilings mechanism is going to pay at least the budget cut. There
are going to be massive funding problems in the first few years.
The simple truth is that there is only one real way to save money
in the Fire Service and that is when somebody leaves, do not replace
him. What would encourage people to leave? The prospect of a pension
increase coming along will actually encourage people to stay.
So in year one our profile for leavers of the Service is going
to change dramatically because I think people are going to stay
longer than perhaps they might because of the pay rise. If we
are going to achieve a different balance of people in our organisations,
we should still carry on recruiting as well However, if we recruit
to replace those people who leave we are not actually saving any
money. I would welcome the opportunity to look at the financial
analysis that underpins the White Paper. I have not seen it. I
cannot see how the figures stack up and certainly if I ran my
budget with the Fire Authority in the way the current financial
predictions seem to be running, I think we would have some very
serious problems.
Q61 Chairman: If you think you have
serious problems when you have a third more per head of the population
to spend than they have, for instance, in Greater Manchester.
How are the other authorities going to manage?
Mr A McGuirk: I think it is self
evident. They are going to have a problem; we are going to have
a problem. Our experience is that delivering improved safety takes
three things: leadership, time and money. Yes, we spend a third
more, but we provide a range of services that Greater Manchester
have chosen not to do at the moment, for example free smoke alarms
and Fire Service Direct.
Q62 Christine Russell: What potential
do you think there is for charging? Is there much potential there?
Mr S McGuirk: We already can charge
in some areas. The power of well-being would be a good start.
We do not really know the full extent of how we can generate money
as a Fire Service and I think there are probably ways we have
not even thought of yet. At the moment legally we cannot do it.
The second problem is actually making a contract. Charging someone
for cutting them out of a car is not a very ethical thing to do
in some people's eyes. Even if we could, trying to get someone
to sign a contract agreeing to pay before we cut them out of the
car does not really feel the right thing the Service should be
doing. That said, there are areas where we could generate income,
for example in our fire safety advice; we have been used instead
of architects in the past about the design of buildings. There
are some of the safety services that we could start to generate
income from and some of what today people see as an emergency.
We heard earlier about lift rescue and some of those things. There
is scope for generating income, but actually it is really quite
peripheral in the grand scheme of things. You have to strike the
balance between the image of the Fire Service and its role in
society as a public service there for safety and rescue and this
mercenary organisation that is going to charge you before it does
anything. People might not call the Fire Service if they think
they are going to be charged for the service. We still have that
now; people still think we charge for the 999 service.
Mr A McGuirk: The opportunities
offered by charging are in the margins. The biggest single issue
that could make a difference would be the pensions problem. It
has been talked about for the 27 years that I have been in the
Fire Service. We seem to be coming closer to solutions. They are
going to cost money and the bill is going to have to be picked
up somewhere. About 20% of my budget is going to pay pensions;
that is on the increase. If the Government were to financially
address one single area, pensions would release a lot of opportunities.
I do not see the solution in charging.
Q63 Christine Russell: Is 20% typical?
Mr S McGuirk: By 2008 pensions
will be broadly 25% of the Fire Service budget.
Q64 Chris Mole: Should it become
a funded scheme?
Mr A McGuirk: For all new entrants
I think there are a lot of opportunities to look at what should
the scheme be like for the future. My concern is that whenever
we talk about the pension the attention diverts into the future.
If Government could fund the existing scheme what a wonderful
idea it would be. The actual assessment I saw was in the billions
so I do not think it is realistic. My concern is that we are forever
focussing on the future and actually I think it is quite an easy
problem to solve for future entrants. The problem is now; the
problem is this year, next year and the year after when we have
hit our pensions time bomb and huge chunks of revenue are going
to pay that pensions bill. It is a legitimate expectation of firemen.
Q65 Christine Russell: Can I change
the topic completely? Can I ask you about the proposals for regional
organisations. I think Steve said earlier that you thought they
were rather hazy.
Mr S McGuirk: We have had a shadow
regional assembly—a north west fire assembly—for about
three years. There is a very strong regional feel and we do collaborate
in all kinds of areas already. However, the reality is that there
is a lot more that could be done. Often there are sensitive organisational
politics and big and small public politics to be worked through.
The White Paper is fuzzy; it is neither one thing nor the other.
Q66 Chairman: Can we put it in simple
terms? Are you giving thumbs up to a regional Fire Service or
a thumbs down?
Mr S McGuirk: Thumbs up, broadly
speaking. There are great economies of scale about planning and
resourcing done at a regional level.
Q67 Chairman: There is only one top
job, is there not?
Mr S McGuirk: We could have a
job share, of course.
Chairman: On that note, can I thank you
very much indeed for your evidence. Can we have the last set of
witnesses, please.
| 
