Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120-135)
4 NOVEMBER 2003
DR MIKE
DENNETT AND
MS ANN
EVERTON
Q120 Mr O'Brien: When you say one-sided,
which side would you be referring to?
Dr Dennett: I think it is a political
report; I think it errs on the side of government and looks at
the solution to the problem, if you like, rather than the problem.
There is so much in it, for example, that is unsubstantiated about
recruitment, about bullying and about the general standards of
fire cover, and there is nothing in the report that I have seen
that is supportive of those conclusions.
Q121 Mr O'Brien: So, what you are
saying is that the report that has been published by the Office
of the Deputy Prime Minister is based on the Bain Report which
is flawed in the first instance.
Dr Dennett: Yes. It carries on
as well. If you look at the economics of fire, you will find that
the last reports that have been done, the most recent reports
over the last four or five years, are based on research that was
done in the seventies or, in some cases, in the sixties, and what
has happened is that people make an assumption. They have to make
some assumptions, but they make an assumption, write a report
and then the next person along builds on that report and it is
not going back to the original assumptions and questioning them.
Q122 Mr O'Brien: What do you think
of the shift of power between central and local government as
anticipated in the White Paper? You have made comment on that
particular point but could you give us a little more information
on that.
Ms Everton: I know that historically,
as regards fire law and building control, shifts between central
and local power are not uncommon, but this situation which we
have at the moment somewhat puzzles me because, on the one hand,
we have a clear desire in the White Paper to shift power from
the centre to local government; it is quite plain. In fact, it
is already under way because, in the Local Government Act 2003,
in I think section 121, section 19 of the 1947 Act is removed
which means that the Secretary of State no longer controls variability
of establishment schemes. Also of course, there will be that shift
of power from the centre to localities when we get the change
of standards of cover, but pulling against that and with a tension,
as it were, in the other direction, you have the Fire Service's
Bill, which I believe is currently before the Lords although I
am not certain about that, which gives to the Secretary of State
power to fix conditions of service and to direct fire authorities
in the use of their property. The provenance of the latter of
course is quite clear, but it seems to me not easy always to reconcile
what is coming out, as it were. On the one hand, you have the
shift from centre to local and, on the other hand, you have the
pulling back by the centre and therefore I wonder, if it is perhaps,
although I would not overstate it, a case of the retention of
a certain measure of power but the giving or rather the divesting
of a certain measure of responsibility and that is a question
which I think would be interesting to research. Thank you for
raising it.
Q123 Mr O'Brien: Would you suggest
that the Secretary of State or the Deputy Prime Minister should
look at this question again because of what you have just said
there, the two directions that it is taking? If so, how would
you wish to see the changes? Should the full power be addressed
by local government or should it come back to the centre? When
would you like to see that situation?
Ms Everton: To my mind, the situation
since 1947 has been that the power and therefore the measure of
responsibility, because the one goes with the other obviously,
is in the centre. Now, if there is this desire to give so much
responsibility to the local fire authorities, then I would think
it proper for the retaining of power, the keeping of power regarding
terms and conditions and use of property. But, I would have thought
that there needed to be somewhere in that Bill a clause—and
I know that it has a sunset clause in it—which says "in
particular situations, we need to have this power". To my
mind, the Bill is very widely drawn and it seems as if this power
has just been, as it were, put down into the midst and my instinct
would be that it is because of the strike.
Q124 Mr O'Brien: Could I put a question
to you both following the points you have just made and that is
the question of the culture and personal changes in the Service
because, for the White Paper to succeed and to be successfully
implemented, we received arguments from submissions that there
has to be a cultural change within the Service. What role should
the unions or the Fire Service College or the Fire Service Inspectorate
take in furthering the cultural change? Could I have your views
on that particular point.
Dr Dennett: Could I quickly mention
something on your earlier question regarding the shape of fire
brigades because it does relate to what you said about local control.
The shape of fire brigades follows local authority boundaries
and that is not efficient. You can see two extreme examples: one
is Southport in Merseyside and the other one in Kinver in Staffordshire
where they are both fingers of the fire brigade that stick into
other people's territory. They are very difficult to manage, they
are difficult for communications and they are not sensible from
an operational point of view. On the cultural change, again, I
think it is necessary to identify what you want to achieve. If
you are looking at a reactive Fire Service, the prime objective
is to have people who are able to go out there and do what is
essentially a very physical job and that should be a starting
point. It really does not matter what gender they are; it does
not matter what their racial background might be; what you need
is people who can do that job and that should be the starting
point. There are other jobs in the fire brigade that do not require
the same level of physical ability and they could be open to a
much wider group of people because clearly the physical requirements
will not apply.
Q125 Mr O'Brien: Do you think that
officers should get nearer to the people who serve under them?
Do you think there is a cultural change required there?
Dr Dennett: The degree to which
officers get near, as you put it, depends from officer to officer.
Q126 Mr O'Brien: I accept that but
we are looking at the proposals for possible changes. How do you
think those changes should come about from a cultural point of
view?
Dr Dennett: The first thing is
to establish a training regime for officers that does not just
rely on people attending courses at either the central training
centre at Moreton-in-Marsh or universities. An officer can join
a fire brigade and remain in that fire brigade for the whole of
his career and have very limited experience because of what is
on offer and I do not just mean operational experience, I mean
in every other way in terms of personnel, in terms of vehicle
management, in terms of the whole management of brigades, and
I think it is necessary for the development of officers to be
looked at.
Q127 Mr O'Brien: Have you a point
on that, Ms Everton?
Ms Everton: As regards any gap
between officer and firefighter, of course what one hears is anecdotal,
but I hear that there is a gap and it would seem to me reasonable
to argue that that gap should ideally be closed. That is one point.
The other point on culture and stems from the fire law aspect
is fire law going down the route of health and safety at work
legislation. It has been put to me that a fire officer culturally
and instinctively is not a policeman. That is an overstatement;
it is an oversimplification but I take the point that was put
to me.
Q128 Mr O'Brien: I would like to
put a further question to Dr Dennett, which is that, in your submission,
you are very critical of senior officers in the Fire Service College
and Inspectorate.
Dr Dennett: Yes.
Q129 Mr O'Brien: Can you give us
a brief comment further on that particular criticism.
Dr Dennett: If you look at the
officers who are not only there now but who have been there historically
and go back to what I said earlier about the development of officers,
then you must question the level of experience of those officers.
The other thing about it is that, once people get in those posts,
they tend to stay in them and this not only affects the operational
side of the brigade but it also affects legislation because they
are the people advising on, for example, building regulations,
they are the people who come in when a determination is being
judged and they do not necessarily have the background to be able
to do that with efficiency.
Q130 Mr O'Brien: How extensive is
that in the Service? Are there a number of people in that criticism
that you have put forward?
Dr Dennett: If you go back to
1974, you will see that one of the Inspectors of Fire Service
who is responsible for inspecting the major metropolitan brigades
in the United Kingdom was the Chief Fire Officer of a two-pump
fire station. That is an indication of the gap. The gap has closed
slightly because there are no fire brigades as small as that now
but the gap is still there. You have people in post who do not
have, in my opinion, the required background.
Q131 Chris Mole: Dr Dennett, the
White Paper talks about replacing the old standards of fire cover.
However, in your submission, you say those were basically correct.
Can you explain this view.
Dr Dennett: No, I do not think
that I said they were correct. I said there is research that shows
that the more buildings, the more fires, and, if you look at the
statistics, they will show that as well. What I said is that the
so-called shift by risk-management plans from cities to other
places to save life is not supportable. I do not know what it
means by a "city" because a city is a living organism,
if you like, throughout the 24 hours—it does not empty at
night like the suggestion has been made. The document itself confirms
that a five minute attendance time is often insufficient to save
life. We should not be looking at life safety in reactive Fire
Service terms. My view about standards of fire cover is that there
should be a standard pre-determined attendance. I believe that
there is sufficient evidence to allocate resources in order that
there is nothing greater and nothing less than a two-pump attendance
and there is a great deal of evidence to support that. The thesis
that I completed in February 2002 proves that in my view conclusively
and in the view of the people who examined that. The Health and
Safety Executive we mentioned earlier and the comment about future
roles of the Fire Service but, if we look at the existing role,
you could be very, very critical from a Health and Safety point
of view of sending one fire engine to an incident with four people
on board because there is no backup for them at all when they
arrive at the incident. Some of those people could be on their
own for 20 minutes. There have been deaths already, not very frequently
thankfully, because of insufficient backup at the right time.
I believe that the present standards while not correct are not
totally wrong in terms of the resources go to where the majority
of buildings are.
Q132 Chris Mole: So, you are essentially
saying that the public have to be educated in a counter-intuitive
notion that you cannot place risk to life at the centre of your
fire-cover provisions.
Dr Dennett: If you have a hotel
in London, you are going to get, I do not know, perhaps four pumps
and a platform and some other bits and pieces and you might end
up with six fire engines there. For the same hotel in, say, Grasmere,
you will get one retained pump from the next village, Ambleside.
Clearly, there is a problem because you have the same risk, the
same type of building construction and the same number of bedrooms
but a massively different attendance. The attendances should be
varied in order that they are not uneconomic because that is the
baseline of everything but, where the attendances are extended
and where there is a problem, then extra resources should be put
in in terms of education.
Q133 Chris Mole: Is that not what
the IRMP will do because it will allow you to be more sensitive
to the specific nature and area rather than averaging to an A,
B, C or whatever?
Dr Dennett: No. What I am saying
is that the minimum should be two pumps. If those two pumps are
going to arrive in five minutes, then that is one set of circumstances
that relate to a building. If those two pumps are going to arrive
in 20 minutes, then another set of circumstances should apply
to that building. The integrated risk-management plans are suggesting
that resources are moved away from cities to where the supposed
risk is and it is related again to life safety and, as I keep
saying, life safety is not the job for a reactive Fire Service.
Firefighters do save lives, they save many lives each year, but
that is not the best way to do it and that is not the most economic
way to do it.
Q134 Chairman: So, what you are saying
is that, as far as lives are concerned, prevention is the key
to it but, as far as property is concerned, it is the speed with
which you get there.
Dr Dennett: There is nothing in
the legislation which relates to property protection.
Q135 Chairman: Should there be?
Dr Dennett: I believe so, yes,
and that should then be linked to the sort of fire cover that
you are achieving or you want to achieve.
Chairman: On that note, can I thank you
very much for your evidence.
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