Examination of Witnesses (Questions 240-259)
11 NOVEMBER 2003
SIR GRAHAM
MELDRUM CBE, MR
PETER MORPHEW,
MR ROBIN
CURRIE AND
MS MARIE
WINCKLER
Q240 Chris Mole: You have just described
how the bulk of your activities will move into the Audit Commission?
Why is it necessary to retain an entirely separate in-service
Inspectorate at all?
Sir Graham Meldrum: I think you
define two very distinct pieces of work. The role of the Inspectorate
is drawn from a wide range of people but obviously people with
professional expertise in the Fire Service. For instance there
are quite a number of operational procedures that are necessary
at national level and it is necessary to ensure that those procedures
are conducted in the spirit of health and safety. It is also necessary
to ensure that when the Fire Service is conducting its operational
duties it does so in a manner which is common throughout the land,
particularly as we are moving towards people working together
in relation to reaction to terrorist incidents. We do not want
fire brigades adopting all sorts of different procedures in relation
to operational incidents. I think the role that we are undertaking
for the future is one of primary importance to the Fire Service
and one of primary importance to central Government.
Q241 Chris Mole: I will return to
the original question and ask the College what they will be doing.
Mr Currie: I think the main difference
so far as the College is concerned is that it will move from being
a simple provider of services on the basis of that which customers
demand of it, to having a central role in taking forward a whole
range of issues for the Fire Service as a central body. That is
something we feel very comfortable about and is a very positive
aspect within the White Paper for the College.
Q242 Chris Mole: So the White Paper
sees you as a centre of excellence in the future. What are the
key changes that you have to make to become that?
Mr Currie: They link to what I
just said really in that there are a whole range of activities
which the Fire Service has traditionally done in a slightly isolationist
way in that each different fire service has had the ability to
go and deal with issues as they have seen fit. There has never
been a central doctrinal body for the Fire Service. One of the
contributions which the White Paper believes the college can make
is to pull together all of those issues, to be a centre of knowledge
not just in terms of teaching but also the holders of knowledge,
the gateway for bringing in information from the operational service
and sharing it. It is certainly work that we have done in the
past and it is certainly something that can be developed more.
Q243 Chris Mole: Is that not a similar
set of skills that Sir Graham has just described to us that they
are going to have in terms of advising ODPM and ministers?
Mr Currie: Clearly we are going
to have to work even more closely together in the future. They
are really different roles in that we are going to be a centre
where people can come for a resource and we hope that that will
develop further as the plans of the Department unfold about how
that is going to be delivered. There are issues there about providing
a service rather than providing information and we hope to be
providing a service in support of the rest of the Fire and Rescue
Service rather than examining it.
Q244 Mr Betts: The White Paper talks
about the new ideas for the Fire and Rescue Service being based
on evidence from rigorous research. We might all say think that
is pretty obvious and true and we would all agree with it. Then
it goes on to talk about the need for an invigorated programme
of fire-related research, implying that what is going on at present
really is not adequate or substantial. It talks about the role
of the Fire Service College as a centre of technical excellence
contributing towards this. However, when we actually look at the
information available to us about how efficient the service is
now, there is precious little, is there not?
Sir Graham Meldrum: In terms of
research, there is a separate body within the directorate that
carries out research on behalf of the Fire Service. The White
Paper identifies the need to look at the Fire Service College
in relation to research. There is a lot of research carried out
at the moment into equipment, standards of use of equipment, operational
procedures and the like. Some of that is related very much to
the Integrated Risk Management Planning System. The research being
carried out now is split between the directorate itself and the
College. I think the recommendation is to see a wider role for
the Fire Service College in respect of research.
Ms Winckler: I should say that
within headquarters there is a policy research team linked to
a statistics division which carries out research into such issues
as arson control. That support the main research division.
Q245 Mr Betts: But in the end there
is precious little that tells us how efficient the Fire and Rescue
Service is.
Sir Graham Meldrum: In what respect?
Q246 Mr Betts: You can tell us when
a 999 call comes in how quickly and how often you get the fire
engines out of the fire station within a given period of time.
Sir Graham Meldrum: Yes.
Q247 Mr Betts: You cannot tell us
how many 999 calls you actually respond to within that given period
of time because, as I understand it, if the fire engine is not
in the fire station it does not count.
Mr Currie: You can get that information.
Q248 Mr Betts: It does not count
in the statistics. The statistics that we are given as evidence
is that the 90-odd% response rate only applies to fire engines
actually in the fire station. Is that not a piece of nonsense?
The person out there whose house is burning down is not particularly
reassured that the statistic does not count because there is no
fire engine available.
Sir Graham Meldrum: This comes
back to the situation that prevails in relation to the standards
of fire cover. The answer is yes; this is all related to the very
strict laid-down relationship between standards of fire cover
and the response times and the measurement that the Inspectorate
made in relation to that. The standards of fire cover as we know
are dated way back into the 1930s and all the associated gathering
of information relates to them. They were very strictly laid down
and people adhered to them. There was a review carried in 1985
which came to the conclusion that they were still very valid and
we continued with them. What they required—if we take A
risk for instance—was that two fire appliances should be
able to attend an A risk incident—an inner city type incident—in
five minutes and a follow-on in eight minutes. To give that sort
of measurement that was reasonable and with some sort of basis
for it, they did the timed runs from the fire station. The base
of all the information in relation to the returns that were made
was from the fire station, as a statistical base. At one time
you would have said that that was extremely valid because the
fire brigade did very little else except respond from a fire station.
However, with the development of new roles for the Fire Service
that has all changed. As we move into the Integrated Risk Management
world then the statistical base will have to change entirely.
Q249 Mr Betts: So what you are really
saying to us then is that what we have now is a load of statistics
related to outdated concepts drawn up in the 1930s. We do not
really have the information which we need to decide how the Service
should be configured and should operate for the future. We are
actually going off into the White Paper and what it seeks to achieve
without any real basis of research information. We are training
tomorrow's operators in the Fire Service without any idea really
as to the basic information on which we should be developing the
Service and prioritising the training.
Mr Morphew: I should say in response
to that question that we are not responsible for the statistics
themselves.
Q250 Chairman: You are doing the
inspections so surely at least you should be saying that you are
inspecting something that is sensible rather than inspecting whether
people are achieving rubbish standards.
Mr Morphew: To your last two words,
Chairman, I would be entirely with you. We are ready to change
the statistics. We have recognised for some time that they needed
changing to reflect the new way of measuring how well the public
service delivers its services and the best way, we are advised,
is through looking at output measures: how well people actually
do the job. If you look at how well the Fire Service has been
doing the job over the last five years you can see that fire deaths
have gone down significantly; injuries are also down and good
progress is being made. A committee has also recently been formed
to look at the whole range of statistics, how to measure effectiveness
as well as efficiency. Work is being done.
Q251 Chairman: You say things have
improved, but how far is that down to the Fire Service and how
far is that down to changes in the building regulations?
Mr Morphew: I think it is very
largely down to the Government getting behind the Fire Service
and public services in 1999 as part of best value and concentrating
on what matters to the community. The biggest concern for the
community is: is the fire put out? (There is a statistic to measure
that.) Was the fire contained to the room of origin? (There is
a way to measure that). Are the fatalities going down and what
more can be done to bring those fatalities down further? Are injuries
going down? We are succeeding in all respects and I do think generally
that is as a result of the Government's push in 1999.
Q252 Mr Clelland: As regards the
improvements that you have referred to such as the reduction in
fire deaths, can we measure which of those are due to building
regulations, which are due to fire preventative measures and which
are due to improvements and efficiency in the actual operation
of the Service?
Mr Morphew: I do not think we
can measure those individually yet. In totality that is what we
are seeing; we are seeing the effect of community fire safety
activity by brigades, the fitting of smoke detectors as a result
of the investment in the National Community Fire Safety Centre
built for educating the public about safety. We are seeing from
the statutory effects of 30 years of legislation in buildings
to which the public resort and where they work. All of those things
coming together are having this overall effect.
Q253 Mr Clelland: So it could be
that we are not actually putting fires out any more efficiently,
any quicker or any more effectively; it is these other measures
that are responsible for the reductions in fire deaths.
Mr Morphew: I think also there
has been a lot of technological development which is getting us
putting out fires more quickly.
Q254 Mr Clelland: Can we measure
this?
Mr Morphew: Not individually,
no. Sometimes we can; we can measure the reverse effect more clearly
where we are working in a socially deprived area and we can that
maybe doors have been taken off rooms, maybe the smoke detector
is not working because there is no battery in it or maybe there
is no smoke detector. That is the way we are coming at it. We
can see where the deficiencies are and that is where we are concentrating
at the moment.
Q255 Mr Betts: What about the College?
We have not really heard very much about what the College's role
is in all this. Is it simply carrying on training in the same
old ways or is it a powerhouse of new ideas, thrusting forward
into the future and taking the Service onwards? We have not really
heard much about whether you can actually deliver on that.
Mr Currie: Let me reassure you
then because there is absolutely no doubt that there is a profound
difference in the basis on which members of the Fire Service are
being trained and developed as a result of the IPDS system. From
the point of view of the College in responding to that over the
past 15 months we have totally changed all of our training processes
and systems in order to meet the roles which are clearly identified
within the Fire Service. We are already delivering that training
with excellent results, really changing the approach of people
who come to the College because they are being taught in a modern
way rather than in a simple pot filling basis. It is much more
demanding on both the students and the College but we are absolutely
certain that the IPDS system is going to make a profound difference
to the way the Fire Service operates.
Q256 Chairman: This is daft, is it
not? You actually do not have the statistical base to know what
the problems are and you are putting in a new training system
based on your hunch, presumably, as to what the issues are. Would
it not have been fundamental for the College to have done the
research and got the statistical information so that you can make
valid judgments as to which is the right way forward?
Mr Currie: I can assure you that
the research that you refer to has gone on for almost ten years
in the development of the IPDS system which has been brought together
both to meet what I would call the hard edged operational needs
of providing the service on the ground, but also many elements
of further education, cultural awareness and improvements
in people skills. I am not sure how much of that you have been
able to study so far, but if you could see the depths in which
that study has taken place and, indeed, the wide range of people
who have contributed to that knowledge base I think you would
be content that that was very well researched indeed.
Q257 Mr Cummings: Obviously the Inspectorate
and the College have been instrumental in creating the nature
of the Service. Having been responsible for the nature of the
Service are you not contributing to many of the problems that
lie within the Service? If that is the case, how are you going
to stop being part of the problem, become pro-active and become
part of the solution?
Sir Graham Meldrum: I would say
that over the years—certainly over the recent years—both
the College and the Inspectorate have made a lot of effort to
try to take the Fire Service forward. If I could take the example
of community fire safety, for instance, part of the Inspectorate
is the National Community Fire Safety Centre. We operate that
on behalf of central Government. We are very instrumental in moving
the whole effort of the Fire Service—with the co-operation
of the CACFOA, chief officers and others—away from the simple
response element of the Fire Service work into community fire
safety. It is very well documented. We, in the Inspectorate, have
done a series of thematic reviews of the Fire Service and the
Baine review brought together a great deal of that work. For instance,
the first thematic review was quality and diversity within the
Service. That was followed by another one where we looked at fit
for duty within the Service and we took forward all the issues
of management, sickness and early retirement within the Service.
Then we did a whole series of things looking at community fire
safety, unwanted fire alarms from the automatic fire alarm systems
and then we also did a thematic review entitled Managing a
modernised Fire Service: Bridging the Gap which identified
a lot of problems in relation to management and recommended that
things like accelerated promotion, and two-tier entry should be
brought into the Fire Service.
Q258 Mr Cummings: We have been told
in evidence that the Inspectorate in particular have been pushing
the Fire Service for years (and I quoting here) "to jump
through all sorts of hoops and performance measures that are almost
useless even in assessing their performance in what was their
role, responding to fires."
Sir Graham Meldrum: I am in difficulty
knowing what that refers to but, as I said before, the Fire Service
Inspectorate was required—in addition to all the other areas
which I term a professional role—to act on behalf of Government
in respect of the value for money so we have to do that audit
based on—
Q259 Mr Cummings: Are you pointing
the finger at the Ministry?
Sir Graham Meldrum: The statutory
requirements of gathering information that we did on behalf of
Government, as was done with all the other local government services;
nothing different.
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