Examination of Witnesses (Questions 440-459)
20 DECEMBER 2003
RT HON
NICK RAYNSFORD
MP, MR CLIVE
NORRIS AND
SIR GRAHAM
MELDRUM
Q440 Christine Russell: Would there
be any need for legislation to extend the charging powers of fire
authorities or not?
Mr Raynsford: I do envisage that
if we do introduce legislation, it will have something to say
on this, yes.
Q441 Christine Russell: Can I just
ask you about the role of the Fire Service vis-a"-vis
health and safety because that does seem to be a bit of an issue
which has arisen during this inquiry, that given the wider statutory
role of the Fire Service, could there not be a difficulty then
in meeting the expectations of the people as envisaged in the
White Paper?
Mr Raynsford: I do not think there
should be, but I defer to my colleagues who have greater experience
on this.
Sir Graham Meldrum: In respect
of the wider role of the Fire and Rescue Service undertaking wider
duties, a lot of the work that we are talking about is already
being undertaken by the Service, and I think it is very true to
say that when the Service sees itself taking on the new role,
for instance, as it has just done on water rescue from inland
waterways, in particular, it does do it very professionally and
training is undertaken, equipment is bought and people are sought
who are experts in the field to train the Fire Service in those
particular areas. I think in the past there has been a tendency
in the Fire and Rescue Service to say, "We'll do that"—it
is a very "can do" sort of Service—to take on
a role and then something happens and people then say, "We
need to do the training, et cetera", but that is in the past.
The Fire Service now is very aware of if they are going to take
on a new role, say, rope rescue, inland waterway rescue—
Q442 Christine Russell: So you have
to sidle up with your counterpart in Health & Safety?
Sir Graham Meldrum: Yes, very
much so. Within the Fire Service Inspectorate, for instance, there
is a health and safety section who relate daily with their colleagues
within the Health & Safety Executive and we develop the new
procedures, the new training manuals that come out and all of
them are endorsed by the Health & Safety Executive.
Q443 Mr Cummings: The Committee have
been told in evidence that, "The Fire Service is already
buried in statistics and performance indicators that reveal very
little about how well brigades and authorities are doing in managing
fire and other risks". Now, in evidence last week the Audit
Commission told the Committee that they were relying upon your
Department to define the new performance measures and indicators.
Given past performance, how can anyone be confident that they
will receive meaningful information so that they can ascertain
how well the brigades and authorities are going to do in the future?
Mr Raynsford: You are absolutely
right to raise this issue and it has been one that, I think, has
bedevilled the Service for some time. It was an issue which I
addressed a couple of years ago when it became clear that one
of the indicators was an utterly perverse one in that the financial
allocations to fire authorities reflected the number of call-outs
they received, so action taken to reduce the number of fires would
perversely reduce the money going to fire authorities. That is
not at all the message we wanted, so we removed that indicator
and we are changing a number of other indicators that are not
an accurate measure of the effectiveness of the Fire and Rescue
Service today. This is a process that is ongoing. We will be talking
to the Audit Commission because they clearly will have views on
this and we are obviously also talking to fire authorities themselves
because they will have very strong views, particularly as they
bring in the new Integrated Risk Management Plan, as to how best
they measure their effectiveness in preventing fires, in driving
down the number of injuries and deaths caused by fires and in
responding effectively to the needs of the community.
Q444 Mr Cummings: So you are confident
that you will get to the root of the problem?
Mr Raynsford: I am confident that
we will make real progress and yes, I hope we will get to the
root of the problem. We will have meaningful statistics that will
enable both fire authorities to organise their affairs in the
most effective way and the Audit Commission to be able to monitor
and assess their performance.
Q445 Mr Cummings: As the prime function
of the Inspectorate is to move to the Audit Commission, is there
really a need to maintain an additional in-service Inspectorate?
Mr Raynsford: Well, Sir Graham
may well be the right person to respond to that, but let me say
immediately that I believe there certainly is, but what is needed
is clarity about two distinct roles. The Audit Commission, in
our view, is the right body to carry out the assessment of the
performance of fire authorities against the expectations which
we will set out in our national framework which we will be publishing
very shortly. Now, that is just the same as the work the Audit
Commission does in relation to local authorities and to other
public bodies. It is monitoring performance and assessing the
efficiency and effectiveness of those bodies. There is a separate
and very important role to provide the professional leadership,
to develop the capability of the Service and the skills of employees
in the Service and to ensure that there is expert advice available
both to ministers and indeed to fire authorities on the way in
which the Service develops and some of the new initiatives that
Sir Graham is all the time assessing and he was referring to a
moment ago in answer to Christine's question.
Q446 Mr Cummings: So you are absolutely
confident the Inspectorate will be able to embrace those changes?
Mr Raynsford: I will leave Sir
Graham to answer that.
Sir Graham Meldrum: Totally. I
think the Inspectorate have shown in many of the areas through
the thematic review work I referred to in my evidence they have
taken a lead in bringing about those changes but were frustrated
in being able to implement them due to the previous institutional
structure which existed. But all of those matters were taken forward,
such as managing a modernised Fire and Rescue Service, community
fire safety, the work which was done on equal opportunities through
the Central Fire Brigades Advisory Council framework which existed,
and that is where they were delayed in implementation.
Q447 Mr Cummings: So you are sure
it will be accepted willingly and with enthusiasm?
Sir Graham Meldrum: I am sure,
yes. Certainly the Inspectorate will accept it with great enthusiasm.
I have found within the Service, since the Bain Review, the White
Paper, there is great enthusiasm throughout the country at all
levels within the Fire and Rescue Service for change. People expect
change and no more so than the firefighters who are really "up"
for the role of community fire safety. I was in Merseyside just
last week and it is really a very enlightened place to go and
see the amount of work which has been put into community fire
safety work in that area which, as we have said before, has a
very high level of fire deaths. They are having something like
250,000 house visits and fire alarms fitted.
Q448 Chairman: Can I be clear? When
we saw the Audit Commission they were a bit upset they had got
landed with this verification role which they were not even consulted
about; suddenly they discovered they had got it. You are saying
very firmly they are going to be the ones who measure the success
of the indicators, but you are going to publish the indicators
of the fire authorities' success and failure in the national framework
outline, is that right?
Mr Raynsford: We will set out
in the draft National Framework our expectations for the Fire
and Rescue Service of the future, and we will also set out what
the Government will do to deliver that. That will be for consultation.
We will then be finalising our first framework document next year.
The Audit Commission will be beginning the process of introducing
the framework for monitoring performance in the light of that
National Framework and also in the light of existing performance
indicators.
Q449 Chairman: So we are going to
get some indicators in that. Can you give us any examples of those
indicators you are thinking of putting into that document?
Mr Raynsford: I cannot at this
stage. The Framework will be published in the very near future
and it will then be available for consultation but until it is
published I think it would not be appropriate for me to talk about
the detail in that document.
Q450 Chairman: When you say "near
future"—
Mr Raynsford: Before Christmas.
Q451 Chairman: So we can take that
into account when we produce our report?
Mr Raynsford: Yes.
Q452 Chairman: Thank you very much.
Mr Raynsford: Can I say on the
Audit Commission, if I can add, the impression they have given
us is not one of reticence or reluctance to take on this work.
The Audit Commission have engaged very constructively with us
about the ability to extend the lessons they have learnt from
the CPA process for local authorities to a similar approach in
relation to fire authorities. Certainly their chairman, James
Strachan, has shown considerable enthusiasm for undertaking this
role.
Chairman: Before this Committee they
made it quite clear they were very uneasy the verification process
sort of arrived on their desk after it had been signed in the
agreement without any consultation as to whether they had the
skills to deal with it.
Q453 Mr Betts: Sir Graham has just
said almost that the Inspectorate were hampered by the previous
institutional arrangements in terms of pushing on with reform.
It appears to us from the evidence we have had that they were
almost part of that institutionalised arrangement previously,
they were almost a cornerstone of it. How do you see the Inspectorate
taking forward the modernisation agenda when they were so much
part of the old regime?
Mr Raynsford: I do not know whether
Sir George Bain said this to you but certainly in my discussions
with him I certainly formed a strong view that he was convinced
there was within the Fire and Rescue Service a huge talent and
ability to transform the service and the people had become increasingly
frustrated with the sclerosis which was associated with a number
of the old institutions and arrangements.
Q454 Mr Betts: Including the Inspectorate?
Mr Raynsford: I will allow Sir
Graham to speak for himself on that but it was widespread in the
Service that people felt frustrated that they could not achieve
the changes they believed were necessary. One of the whole purposes
of the White Paper changes is to try and make it possible for
the Service to respond quickly and appropriately to the need for
change to meet those objectives we have spelt out.
Q455 Mr Betts: From your perspective
you need a very different Inspectorate performing the very different
roles?
Mr Raynsford: Yes
Q456 Mr Betts: Slimmed down?
Mr Raynsford: It will be slimmed
down and it will be free to do the work it is absolutely essential
to do, focusing upon the professional development of the service,
on the thinking about what tomorrow's service should be delivering
and providing and how that is best accomplished, rather than going
through the process of monitoring the day-to-day performance of
fire authorities which is, as I said, more appropriately handled
by the Audit Commission.
Q457 Mr Betts: What sort of size
reduction are we talking about?
Mr Raynsford: Graham?
Sir Graham Meldrum: We have already
put plans into being to take account of the new role and the difference.
If we were talking about figures, it is probably in the region
of a difference of 50% in the size of the organisation.
Q458 Mr Betts: That is from what
to what?
Sir Graham Meldrum: The Inspectorate
went up and down, depending on the role, because we undertook
a lot of major topics but, roughly speaking, the average establishment
level of the Inspectorate was 86 people, and that included all
our support staff—
Q459 Mr Betts: So 43 in future?
Sir Graham Meldrum: It will be
around about that sort of figure, yes. So it is changing to that.
That included a lot of work. It is very difficult for the Fire
Service Inspectorate because in its terms of reference it covers
much more than inspection, it also ran things like the Crown Premises
Inspection Group, who are the people who are responsible for the
fire safety of this building and all other crown premises. So
that was a fairly large group of people, about 20 people working
on that work on its own. We are looking at how that particular
piece of work can be done in the future. We also for instance
had the role of producing all the training manuals for the Fire
Service. I could go on and on. It is a far wider range of work
than just inspection.
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