Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-39)
10 MARCH 2004
PHIL HOPE
MP AND MR
PAUL EVERALL
Q20 Mr Betts: Does anyone go back and
check whether that has been achieved and the methods the developers
are proposing are as good as the guidance at some stage in the
future, or do you take the developer's word and not go back and
check it at all?
Mr Everall: As far as energy conservation,
no, we do not go back. One of the things we are looking at more
generally is the sound insulation side, where we are—
Chairman: We will come on to sound. It
is a separate issue.
Q21 Mr Betts: Do you at least do a random
check at some point whether people differ from the guidance in
what they are developing to make sure it is as good as the guidance?
Phil Hope: The only relevance
of the sound insulation point here is that the robust standards
that we are setting for types of walls are done, as it were, before
they are installed so that they then set a standard by being up
to that standard before they are built. It might be that in terms
of the kind of energy conservation issues that, if a component
has met a standard, you would not need to go back and check it
because it has met a standard of energy conservation that you
are concerned to achieve.
Q22 Mr Betts: I think you have lost me
as well.
Phil Hope: It was meant to be
helpful, Chair, but, if it is not, we will move on.
Chris Mole: I am with you.
Q23 Mr Betts: How does the European Directive
on Energy Performance, which has got to be transposed into UK
law by January 2006, fit in? Is that going to be part of the Building
Regulations?
Phil Hope: The Directive, as you
know, aims to promote the introduction of some cost-effective
measures to improve energy performance of both new and existing
buildings, although I think we must all recognise that the largest
potential for energy savings lies with the existing building stock
rather than with new buildings, and the requirements of the Directive
include setting standards for these, together with certification,
so that this energy performance can be readily compared when buildings
are constructed, sold or rented out. Greater use of renewable
energy sources is also included and things like inspection of
boiler and air-conditioning systems. So the Directive will actually
set standards for those that then we would expect we would push
for. They will be reflected in the Building Regulations, Part
L, when they are revised.
Q24 Mr Betts: But the Directive deals
with existing buildings as well, so how is that going to work?
Phil Hope: In fact, Andrew Stunell's
Bill on sustainable and secure buildings provides us with a very
good opportunity. I know we have not passed this Bill yet, but
we have had a good Committee stage and with a fair wind, through
both the important third reading and into the Lords. That provides
us with extra powers to be able to then use Building Regulations
to achieve some of those standards as well. So that Bill, which
we are, as I say, actively supporting—
Q25 Mr Betts: That is for existing buildings
as well?
Phil Hope: In terms of existing
buildings, the Bill, the Sustainable and Secure Buildings Bill,
does have some powers to impose retrospective changes where there
is, for example, a change of occupancy. It is limited to issues
of fuel and power, greenhouse emissions and some water conservation
measures, but it does include, not only when a new building is
being built or a new building is being altered or substantially
changed, it includes where there is change of occupancy and that
is an extra trigger that will allow us to create better building
energy conservation on existing stock as well as on the new stock.
Mr Everall: One of the requirements
of the European Directive is that we do require certification,
not just when a building is constructed, which is easy enough
to do under the current regulations, but also whenever it is sold
or re-let.
Q26 Mr Betts: Can I just raise another
issue with you then. If the issue is going to be looked at in
terms of change of occupancy, how is that going to fit into the
home information pack?
Phil Hope: We would hope it would
be reflected in the home information pack, because every house
will have a figure, a number, attached to it in its own information
pack about its energy efficiency.
Q27 Mr Betts: But then there might be
a requirement to improve that (and that draws into a change of
occupancy), might there not, to meet the new standards?
Phil Hope: Yes. If there is a
change of occupancy there is an opportunity to improve the quality
of the energy efficiency of the building under the Sustainable
and Secure Buildings Act.
Q28 Chairman: Can I pursue this question
of the European Directive. That comes into force in January 2006.
Does that mean it actually applies from that date, so you are
talking in terms of bringing in Part L of the Regulations in 2005—that,
presumably, has to be about June of 2005—in order that you
can have that six months lead in for that January date?
Mr Everall: That is correct. We
are working towards the completion of the work on Part L and the
publication of a new Approved Document or documents with the regulations
in the summer 2005 so they can come into force at the end of 2005,
which is very nearly the same thing as 4th January 2006.
Q29 Mr Betts: In terms of the modern
methods of construction which the Deputy Prime Minister is so
enthusiastic about, some of us might be slightly more reticent,
but some of the energy standards considerations are going to be
even higher than are required of traditional buildings. Are they
going to be ultimately setting new standards which are going to
be mirrored back into the Building Regulations?
Phil Hope: Two things. All building
regulations will apply to the new types of construction, the modern
methods of construction. It will be up to the designers, the builders
of these new buildings to make sure that their buildings comply
with all building regulations not just those on energy conservation.
In terms of whether they might be higher—
Q30 Mr Betts: I understand. That is encouraging?
Phil Hope: Absolutely. I would
like to say that although we have a set of standards at the moment,
the revised Part L will help us towards the European Directive
and our own ambitions towards energy conservation. We would hope
that builders will go further than that. We think of the Eco Homes
Standard and whether we can move from just being passably good
to being excellent and therefore to see that builders in both
the private and the public sector might have higher aspirations
than the Building Regulations, even the revised Building Regulations,
might insist upon. If that is the case, they then set a standard,
and that might become, as it were, in the market place, something
that you would want to market your property or your building—
Q31 Mr Betts: I was going to say, pursuing
that, therefore, when we come to the home information pack, as
well as just saying this property complies with the Building Regulations,
which presumably it has to, is there any idea of developing the
system that you have for fridges now where you have got energy
efficiency, you know, A, B, C, D? Is that the sort of standard
that might be used for houses?
Mr Everall: Yes, possibly not
for whole houses, but possibly worth looking at: for example,
boilers. One of the changes that we are proposing to make even
earlier than January 2006 is to require that all boilers which
are installed after 1st April 2005 will be A or B rated. I think
you are referring to the sort of ratings that you get on fridges,
or whatever, which go A through to E or something of that sort.
Boilers are similarly rated. We propose to only allow A or B rated
boilers to be installed after 1st April 2005.
Q32 Mr Betts: Finally, another issue
relating to installation of energy products in houses, I had a
real problem with new housing in my constituency a few years ago
concerning the self-certification of electrical installations.
I understand there is going to be some progress made about incorporating
these issues into the Building Regulations, so that we get proper
inspection of electricity and gas installations as well. Could
you explain where that is up to?
Phil Hope: We are in the middle
of producing some draft regulations, which we are calling Part
P, on electrical installations which are primarily around the
safety of electrical installations in the home. What is interesting
around all of this is how increasingly, as regulations like this
develop, the need to balance the impact of different kinds of
regulations, building regulations at different times. For example,
we ought to make sure that homes have safe electrical installations,
we also want to make sure they are accessible to disabled people
and to make sure they are resistant, say, to flooding. So when
you are putting together different building regulations you are
ensuring that all of these different components are complimentary
to one another and not contradictory to one another. On the particular
point you are making, yes, we are in the middle . . . I do not
know if we have a timetable. The Department has been very busy
on a lot of activity at the moment, but we are—
Q33 Mr Betts: In the future people will
be reassured that when they buy a new home it is going to be inspected
through a Building Regulation process independently, and not self-certified
by an electrical supplier?
Mr Everall: Part of our package
of proposals for introducing Part P is that reputable people who
subscribe to a particular self-certification scheme will be able
to self-certify that their work complies with the Building Regulations,
but they will have to demonstrate that they are reputable bodies
and not cowboys.
Mr Betts: That does not reassure me completely,
I have to say?
Q34 Chairman: Very few people admit to
being cowboys, do they?
Phil Hope: No, but there are professional
bodies that they would register with in order to gain self-certification,
very serious duties, to make sure that they are not cowboys and
that they are professional bodies that can undertake this work
and do so properly.
Q35 Mr Betts: If you could be shown examples
of self-certification that have happened in the past by organisations
who were members of the appropriate trade bodies. Basically it
was not done. Does that not slightly worry you?
Phil Hope: Yes, and indeed, when
it comes to how we enforce the Building Regulations and apply
them and so on, essentially building control is a matter for the
local authorities. We have approved inspectors, as you know, and
we have self-certification schemes in one or two areas where we
think we will be able to do so with a degree of confidence. We
are looking, as we go through the Part P Regulations and designing
those, to what extent self-certification might or might not be
applied and how we operate around Part P. We have not made decisions
on that. That is a matter for further consultations. The idea
of self-certification being in some way faulty: I think, I would
have to say, I understand those concerns , and we would have to
deal with individual examples, but not that the idea itself does
not have any merit because we do think it does have merit in certain
circumstances.
Q36 Chairman: Before we move off the
energy regulations, by 2006 what contribution to reducing global
warming would you expect to come from the housing sector?
Phil Hope: That is a really large
question.
Q37 Chairman: There is no point in bringing
the regulations in, is there, unless it is going to make some
contribution? It may cut householders' bills, but clearly one
of the things that should be driving this forward is that it makes
a contribution. It may be fairly small, because it is only new
buildings?
Phil Hope: Yes, you are absolutely
right. I am not sure I can answer the question in the way you
would like, Chair. I know that dwellings account for something
like 27% of carbon emissions, for example, non-domestic buildings
around 19%, and we have got some very ambitious targets to reduce
greenhouse gas emissions and carbon emissions. To actually state
now what the outcome will be, yes, we are expecting by 2010, more
than half the carbon emission reductions in the existing climate
change programme around 10 million carbon could come from energy
efficiency improvements in households and buildings for industry,
commerce and the public sector. That is the kind of figure we
have for 2010. That is not answering your question about by January
2006.
Q38 Chairman: I am interested in the
contribution that could come from the new Building Regulations,
and perhaps you might send us that in time?
Phil Hope: I will send you a note
on that.
Q39 Mr Clelland: I was talking to a Cypriot
business man recently who was horrified about the way we waste
water in this country. While, of course, Cyprus and the UK are
quite different, he did nevertheless have an important point to
make about that: because we are very wasteful with what is a very
precious and often scarce resource in other parts of the world.
Last year, at the Better Buildings Summit, your Department announced
that they would consider better regulatory vehicles to improve
efficiency in new buildings by 2005 in terms of use of water.
Can you tell us how much closer we are to that? How much more
water is going to pour down the drain before we get the new regulations?
Phil Hope: Yes. Part G of the
Building Regulations is the part that covers water conservation
in terms of how buildings consume water. There are many other
parts of government policy, but I will just stick to the Building
Regulations part of the debate this afternoon. We are looking
at Part G and the new regulations to try to, as it were, reduce
the amount of water that is used, whether it is by flushing toilets
and so on, to try and improve water conservation and to minimise
use of water. The reason it comes under Part G is because that
is do with hygiene. One of the concerns we have is that, if we
reduce the amount of water we expect households to use through
regulation, we have to make sure that we do not create a risk
of foul water or infection, and so on, if pipes are not properly
flushed through, and so on. So it is during looking at the Part
G regulations that we are hoping to come up with the right answer
on how we can minimise the use of water in buildings whilst maintaining
the other features of water that needs to be clean at appropriate
points in a house.
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